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Necron 4.4.1

 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:39 pm 
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Looking at the Abattoir compared to the rest of the list, though, it is awesome.


750pts of deadweight.

I've never seen it do a single thing of influence in any game I've seen Zombo undertake; It's just too slow to get anything done, regardless of how awesome it looks on paper.

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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:00 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Apr. 10 2008,17:35)
QUOTE
EDIT: And you keep bringing up the ADDING of 2 pips to the SR, but it isn't.  The Variable Strategy Rating was a nerf on the list by allowing an opponent to lower the Necron SR by killing the SC (or by the player just not bringing one).

Glass half full, glass half empty, the result is the same.

Whether it's a bonus for having a SC or a nerf for not having one, the result is the same.

I've playtested necrons a whole lot, at both SR1 and SR3, and I see no reason to ever have them as SR3, especially as a free upgrade.

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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:03 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Apr. 10 2008,17:35)
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Looking at the Abattoir compared to the rest of the list, though, it is awesome.  Living Metal, Infiltrate, great CC attacks, fearless, and a Portal to boot!

Most of which can be found on the warbarque for half the price + decent shooting + teleport + a flux arc + supreme commander.

Seriously, 2 warbarques, one of which is a supreme commander comes to 650 points. That's 100 points less than the abbatoir, the same number of DC in total, WAY more shooting, an extra portal, teleporting etc.

What does the abbatior have over them? Awesome close combat, but it's too slow to ever get into combat, since noone sane leaves anything worthwhile within 40cm of it.





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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:32 pm 
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(zombocom @ Apr. 11 2008,11:40)
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For marines, to upgrade a normal commander to Supreme Commander costs 50 points.

Ditto for Necrons (warbarque), but it also includes a free +2 SR.

And for that same 50 points (Or more to the point, 300 points if you use a C'tan) you don't lose your Strategy rating when the Supreme commander isn't on the board.

All you'd lose is a re-roll as a Marine.

Abattoirs and Orbs are pointed intentionally to deny you a Supreme Commander if you take them in a Tournament level game.  If that makes them less valuable (or common) in tournaments, I don't have a problem with that.  They are world eating engines, so really they are for BIG games.

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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:36 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 11 2008,10:52)
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I find it hard to think that the monolith pricing change has had such a dramatic change so as to change Zombo's reported experience.

well, I'd say that Zombo's own words say that it's very likely to do exactly that:


Most importantly I want to stress that this is the most fun my opponents have had playing against necrons ever, and not just because they won! The monolith changes have totally revamped the list, and left it so much more ballanced.


I'd say that qualifies as a pretty significant change compared to his previously reported experiances.

Personally... I just wish I could play against him.

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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:52 pm 
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Corey - does the SR 3+ go to 1+ when the unit is off board as well?  I thought it was for when it was dead/destroyed, or simply not included.  Obviously your Supreme Commander re-roll doesn't work unless you are on board but the SR change I am not sure about now.

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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:01 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Apr. 11 2008,15:52)
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Corey - does the SR 3+ go to 1+ when the unit is off board as well? ?I thought it was for when it was dead/destroyed, or simply not included. ?Obviously your Supreme Commander re-roll doesn't work unless you are on board but the SR change I am not sure about now.

I'm sorry, I mis-spoke.

You do still get it while they are alive, even if off board.

By the way, you can use the Supreme Commander re-roll off board, but only to affect affect the activation roll to get his formation on the board.

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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:42 pm 
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(corey3750 @ Apr. 10 2008,20:32)
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And for that same 50 points (Or more to the point, 300 points if you use a C'tan) you don't lose your Strategy rating when the Supreme commander isn't on the board.

Supreme commander is better for necrons than marines, but costs the same. That's not a downside.

Sure it hurts more if he dies, but only because it's better in the first place!


Imagine instead of the SR bonus the necron SC gave an extra initiative reroll, so 2 rerolls. It'd certainly hurt the necrons to lose the SC more than it would hurt Marines, but does that mean it should be the same price as it is for marines?

No, because it's a lot better than the marine one!

Now imagine it made necrons SR10. By your logic it should still only cost 50 points because it'd be -9 SR when it died.

Your argument is really flawed, because you're not taking into account how good it is while it's alive.

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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:46 pm 
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How is the function of a Supreme Commander better in a Necron army than any other army?
Your argument is based on this assumption but I just don't see it.  You must take it in a C'tan or a Warbarque, all of which have 3 DC which is pretty easy to suppress even with Living Metal.  You can't  bury them in a larger formation (which you can with a SM SC by the way).

Zombo, your argument is based on the preconceived notion that the Supreme Commander unbalances the list as it stands.  Given two whopping games and neither of them played with a Supreme Commander I'd say you are jumping the gun.  It is entirely possible that the list is completely balanced as of right now and was done so without changing the SR to 1+.  Now that might not match your vision of the Necrons but who cares as long as it is balanced?  

Your argument is also based on the assumption  that the SR can shamefully unbalance the list (at least the way you are arguing over it).  Do you know for certain that a SR 3+ would have won you the games you played?

If playtesting shows it as overpowered I'll be the first one to ask for it to be changed.  But right now you and E&C are going ballistic over two games that:
1. Played well.
2. Were balanced.
3. Were fun.
4. The Necrons lost.
5. Had no Supreme Commander.

That's like me playing a game with the Eldar, bringing no Aspects, and then declaring that the Exachs are too cheap.  They might be underpriced, but my statement would be utter nonsense since there was nothing to back it up.

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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:54 pm 
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How is the function of a Supreme Commander better in a Necron army than any other army?


Because it gives a re-roll, and +2 to the strategy rating.

All other armies just get a re-roll, for the same +50pts (SC on a Warbarque).


The Necrons lost.

Only just, if he'd have rolled a 2+ to engage my Reaver with his Abatoir, he'd have won hands down, as it was he lost 2-1.

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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:00 pm 
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I have played plenty of games with SR3 in the past, both using a warbarque and c'tan, as well as before the SR rating was dropped.

This isn't a new thing I'm bringing up based on the games I just played, they have nothing to do with it. It's something I've been saying for a long time.

At the very least SCs need to be made more expensive to account for the double bonus.





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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:07 pm 
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(zombocom @ Apr. 11 2008,16:42)
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Supreme commander is better for necrons than marines, but costs the same. That's not a downside.

Sure it hurts more if he dies, but only because it's better in the first place!


Imagine instead of the SR bonus the necron SC gave an extra initiative reroll, so 2 rerolls. It'd certainly hurt the necrons to lose the SC more than it would hurt Marines, but does that mean it should be the same price as it is for marines?

No, because it's a lot better than the marine one!

Now imagine it made necrons SR10. By your logic it should still only cost 50 points because it'd be -9 SR when it died.

Your argument is really flawed, because you're not taking into account how good it is while it's alive.

Hyperbole isn't helpful here.

You haven't illustrated a single instance where the Necron's strategy rating has had a bearing on the existing list.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  Playtest data is more valuable than theory.

You've said it yourself.  The Abattoir for example looks like an abosolute monster on paper, but in action it's not as devestating as it might seem.

I well remember the screams of horror about the unit when it first came out... then people started to actually play it and all of the sudden the complaints were the opposite: that it was over-priced.

You've also overlooked something.  The Necron have to pay 300-350 points to have a strategy rating of 3.  The Marines get it for free.  And I hate to break it to you, but realistically, the Necron are just as tactically capable as a the Marines are.  Hell, their stats are virtually identical!  The only reason I put in a variable strategy rating was to make the army a little more fluffy.  Well, that and to make Supreme commanders a nice juicy target. :)

play a few games with them.  Win them, and show me where winning initiaive by less than 2 points turned the tide in the game a few times.

Then explain to me how that is any different from EVERY other game where winning initiative on a turn is the deciding factor in who wins a close game.

Then you should be able to demonstrate how that would be broken.

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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:10 pm 
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(zombocom @ Apr. 11 2008,18:00)
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At the very least SCs need to be made more expensive to account for the double bonus.

it is NOT a bouns.

But if you make it happy, I'll remove the variable and lock it in at 3 SR.

Then killing the Supreme will do exactly the same thing as it does to the Marines:  Nothing.

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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:22 pm 
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SR3 (-2 for no SC) = SR1 (+2 for SC)

It's exactly the same whether you consider it a bonus for having a SC or a penalty for not having one.

It's mathematically the same thing. It can be viewed as a penalty or just as validly can be viewed as a bonus. Whether that's what you intended or not that's what it is.

And as I have said, I have played LOTS of games at SR3 and found it overpowered. It was much too consistent in getting the first activation, which made it a lot easier to win. The drop to SR1 is what I found most balancing of almost all the changes that have happened to the list.

It's not just theory, I have played a lot of games at SR3.





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 Post subject: Necron 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:35 pm 
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But if you make it happy, I'll remove the variable and lock it in at 3 SR.


Oh, great. :D

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