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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA
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(rpr @ Apr. 10 2008,04:27)
QUOTE In overall it is cool updated version with many discussed things on it. Great!
Cool.
The variable SR, no '1' and '6' rule, well some like that there is no possessed...
(but my figures as raptors do not have jump packs, duh)
They, um, fly by magic? ?
I like the Debaser change (but there is still AA problem as it is so stabile... that havoc
launcher rhino would be great 
Interesting idea. Will ponder.
-the new added doom siren to bikers, raptors and terminators might be "too much". Well maybe not for terminators as their FF is now 4+, but for bikers, they are now insane FF killers
You said bikes weren't good enough...
- Lord changes seem interesting and I can definitely give it a try. But it is now even less MW in the army... =] ? The change of MW to first strike EA, inv save, AND +EAFF first strike ic might be too much? Sorceror lord might be horrible in terminators..
I figured it probably roughly equivalent. If any of the formations such as terminators are really that effective then we can just up their formation cost by 25 points.
- if Legionnaires are non-fearless, they definitely cost too much. If forlorn hope is 125 (for 4 CSM scouts), these should be like 175 or 200 if they had to be in formations of 6. Moreover, they could get fearless rhinos...?
Nuts! Yes, these should be 200 points.
Yes, as it stands they do indeed get Fearless rhinos. Odd, but let's leave it like that for the time being.
- I still think that 100 points for fearless land raider is too much. There is debate is that 75 for plain land raider and 85 for ATSKNF land raider too much, and ATSKNF land raider is better than fearless land raider most of the time..
Well, depends.
But I take the point. Shall we say 500 points for six Land Raiders for the Termiantors?
Keep the Land Raiders for Transports at +75 points however. They're more useful there, so I think it's okay that they pay a premium for that.
But it has been like this and so far it has survived - Hell Blades are one way to go..
Yep. I've not really been following the hell blades discussion though. As and when people are happy with new Chaos aircraft someone let me know and I'll swap out these things in the list...
My suggestions as little changes:
- bikers FF 5+
Okay. That doesn't make them much better (except that one attack has First Strike) than FF4+ and you weren't too happy with them at FF3+. You sure on this?
And some cosmetical:
-call debaser Death Wailer as Doom Siren as it seems identical...?
Yep! I'll do that.
-EC predator looks it needs something.. I mean it is a bit like 'yet another FF unit' and seems odd combination with LR.
Suggestions? But I'm not too sure I'm not happy with it. It really boosts the FF of armoured companies.
As I thought this a bit more, maybe Doom Siren should only change units normal FF to IC+FS, instead of giving +FFEA. The upped FF value to balance +EA then has some side effects like downgrading lords.
The problem is that this sort of thing confuses people. Everyone knows how extra attacks and things like first strike work. Making it affect their basic attack but not extra attacks is messy and people tend to assume that it does give an extra attack.
It is very understandable the desire to do something to it, but this new, always included doom siren could be a huge change. EC already had quite well tested units and this now changes their stats and balance. It might be an interesting and good idea, but far from conservative at least :]
The other choice would to use the old FF stats as in v2.0, and then yet again give certain formations a possibility to take 'doom sirens' special ability for say +50 points which would change basic FF attack of all core units to FS+IC.
I wanted to do away with the upgrade...
We can simply do away with the doom siren altogether and just leave it as something on the debaser and Lord datafaxes...?
I would say - try one game with these stats and see how they do (with any changes you feel necessary - such as the bikes). If the doom sirens really are unbalancing, then let's ditch them and go back to the previous version.
I have to agree that the revised Bike stats do make them very good. I feel that Doom Sirens needs to remain an upgrade and I liked the doubles formation size in an engagement.
I don't like the idea of unit upgrades, to be honest. And the doubling formation size seems fiddly.
I also agree that the cost for the legionnaires is too much. Can we not just use the BL formation size, costs and restrictions? This would be so much easier.
No! The formation size must be six! ?
If possessed are going to be dropped then the references in page 5 need to be removed.
Thank you.
Because the increased randoness makes it even more difficult to plan how you are going to fight the battle.
If you are playing Marines vs Guard, the Marine player would normally assume that he is going to go first every turn and can as final moves set up engagements / fire support confident that this will come off. The Guard player will conversly assume that they will not go first and set themselves up accordingly.
EC become too random and playtesting will become more difficult for this.
Actually, believe it or not, it will become less random. Let's compare SR4 with SRD6:
SR4: the possible outcomes are as follows with the dice roll in parentheses:
5 (1)
6 (2)
7 (3)
8 (4)
9 (5)
10 (6)
SRD6
2 (11)
3 (12, 21)
4 (13, 22, 31)
5 (14, 23, 32, 41)
6 (15, 24, 33, 42, 51)
7 (16, 25, 34, 43, 52, 61)
8 (26, 35, 44, 53, 62)
9 (36, 45, 54, 63)
10 (46, 55, 64)
11 (56, 65)
12 (66)
As you can see, while the average roll for both is similar (7.5 vs. 7), the SRD6 is much more likely to get an average result than the SR4.
I don't see how this greatly affects strategy. For low SR like guard - you know you are less likely to get priority as even if you roll high, the opponent is less likely to get an unlucky low roll. But then you're probably assuming you're going second anyway, so maybe that's not such a bad thing. For high SR opponents, while the EC player is more predicatble, it still comes down to your dice roll.
It should do exacly what we want - most of the time the EC will roll roughly equivalent to SR4, but every so often you'll get a freak roll and they'll move slower than guard or faster than eldar. But that doesn't necessarily make them more random - if anything they'll be more predictable.
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Transport upgrade could stay or be like +60.