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To beard him in his lair!
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:12 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 09 2008,16:10)
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Oh you don't have to - I think the 60cm TLD for +25 points on the Warhound is a good idea. I just think for Battle Titans it should be free and their chassis costs raised appropriately.

*nods*

Definitely worth looking at.

On the other hand, it's pretty obvious that system would make the idea of taking the other scout titan weapons on your battle titan a very poor idea indeed (Why take a 'scout' class VMB, when you could have a Turbolaser for the same cost?).

I'm half convinced at this point that my compromise between v2 and v3 could be a poor idea, that either v3 should go the whole way (And adopt the modern weapon slot restrictions, which would seem inherently more balanced due to the stablised points costs), or return to a backwards-looking* v2 style, with scout weapons being renamed so as to be different to battle weapons (I think Hena would kill us if we tried :p ).

Or we could make turbolasers and gatlings 45cm again, and wonder if the v3 discount is appropriate for 45cm range weapons. :D

* Not nessesarily a bad thing.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:24 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 09 2008,11:12)
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I'm half convinced at this point that my compromise between v2 and v3 could be a poor idea, that either v3 should go the whole way (And adopt the modern weapon slot restrictions, which would seem inherently more balanced due to the stablised points costs), or return to a backwards-looking* v2 style, with scout weapons being different to battle weapons.


* Not nessesarily a bad thing.

As much as I dislike having different stats for Scout and Battle weapons, I would rather have that than the Apoc weapon slot restrictions.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:25 pm 
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As much as I dislike having different stats for Scout and Battle weapons, I would rather have that than the Apoc weapon slot restrictions.


Don't worry, I think it's 99% unlikely I'll be asking you to cut up your Titans any time soon. :D

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:28 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 09 2008,11:25)
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As much as I dislike having different stats for Scout and Battle weapons, I would rather have that than the Apoc weapon slot restrictions.


Don't worry, I think it's 99% unlikely I'll be asking you to cut up your Titans any time soon. :D

For me, it has nothing to do with cutting up my Titans. None of my weapons are glued on. It's more a preference to avoiding artificial restrictions.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:29 pm 
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I think 'nerfing' the Imperial Guard and Marine Titans to fit an AT army list would be a bad idea and relegate it forever to houserule status.

As it is though the scout weapons still would never be used on battle titans as Rocket launchers, TLD and Gatling blasters are all better. If they all cost more I'd still happily take VMB if it meant a big points saving. Hell I'd consider three plasma guns on a reaver if I was weighing in at around 550 points.

If my wife catches me not applying for jobs and doing this she'll get me :)

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Ginger
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:33 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 09 2008,15:23)
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@Ginger
The presence of a "per 1000" limit suggests that the O-minor is already ?considered too powerfull, and this may be true of other formations.


That's a background restriction rather than balance-based (They're meant to be moderately rare).
Even so, the O-minoris does rather better than IG SHTs because of the shielding, though the weapons loads are perhaps slightly lighter.

With regards formations, I have to agree with TRC that 2x battle titans seems optimal, which makes some of the other choices a bit bland in a way. Under the basic assumption that people like warhounds (and IMO at 275 they are still too cheap):-
- 4x Reavers leaves enough for 2x warhounds, but 6x activations is barely competitive and will allow the enemy to concentrate on each Reaver in turn

- 3x Reavers, 2x single WH and 1x pair WH has the same problems as before, while 4x single WH, or 3x singles & something else is not much better.

On the other hand, a single Battle titan does not give you enough support formations (2x WH pairs and a maxed out Warlord is ~2000 points) so you must then max out on the allies which are much less competitive than Warhounds IMO.

Sadly, I am unsure how you can alter this fundemental set of choices without a significantly adverse effect on the list. Putting warhound pairs as an option in the main body might work, but provides the obvious WH horde, though a WH triple for 750 might be a possibility (the horde would then suffer activation problems).

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:37 pm 
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(Ginger @ Apr. 09 2008,11:33)
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Sadly, I am unsure how you can alter this fundemental set of choices without a significantly adverse effect on the list. Putting warhound pairs as an option in the main body might work, but provides the obvious WH horde, though a WH triple for 750 might be a possibility (the horde would then suffer activation problems).

How about making a pair of Warhounds a core choice, but limiting it to say 0-2 or 0-3?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:39 pm 
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I think 'nerfing' the Imperial Guard and Marine Titans to fit an AT army list would be a bad idea and relegate it forever to houserule status.


Would it be a true nerf if the titans were made slightly cheaper at the same time as dropping their ranges to 45cm though?



As it is though the scout weapons still would never be used on battle titans as Rocket launchers, TLD and Gatling blasters are all better.

My current thought on this is something like:

- Raise the cost of Gatling back to +25pts (It started there, but I dropped it in order to raise the hull cost of the Warlord, and apparently threw the whole list out of whack!)

- I've always found Missile Launchers (Especially multiples) to be comparatively weak, and not worth an equivilent number of other comparable weapons (Turbolaser, Gatling, etc).


If they all cost more I'd still happily take VMB if it meant a big points saving.

I think that's the crux, finding the place at which the points saving (and increased cost!) is neither too big nor too small.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:46 pm 
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(Ginger @ Apr. 09 2008,16:33)
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 09 2008,15:23)
QUOTE

@Ginger
The presence of a "per 1000" limit suggests that the O-minor is already  considered too powerfull, and this may be true of other formations.


That's a background restriction rather than balance-based (They're meant to be moderately rare).
Even so, the O-minoris does rather better than IG SHTs because of the shielding, though the weapons loads are perhaps slightly lighter. [/quote]

This is the first batrep in which the O-Minorus has done anything useful (Several batreps so far have seen them as an easily-dispatched annoyance that was killed via Engagements due to it being non-fearless).

I also wonder how good they'd have seemed if they were paying +25pts for their Gatling weapon.

With regards formations, I have to agree with TRC that 2x battle titans seems optimal, which makes some of the other choices a bit bland in a way. Under the basic assumption that people like warhounds (and IMO at 275 they are still too cheap):-

I love my 325pt double Turbolaser Warhound! :)


A single Battle titan does not give you enough support formations (2x WH pairs and a maxed out Warlord is ~2000 points) so you must then max out on the allies which are much less competitive than Warhounds IMO.

Sadly, I am unsure how you can alter this fundemental set of choices without a significantly adverse effect on the list. Putting warhound pairs as an option in the main body might work, but provides the obvious WH horde, though a WH triple for 750 might be a possibility (the horde would then suffer activation problems).

I think the next update will concentrate on the Allies section of the list... currently it is an undoubted way to effectively increase your activation count.

Perhaps moving the O-Minoris and Majoris to the Support Formation slot might be a good starting point...

(I think the majoris may need a minor points drop, but that's beside the point ATM!)

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Ginger
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:46 pm 
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[quote="Evil and Chaos,Apr. 09 2008,16:39"] - I've always found Missile Launchers (Especially multiples) to be comparatively weak, and not worth an equivilent number of other comparable weapons (Turbolaser, Gatling, etc).


If they all cost more I'd still happily take VMB if it meant a big points saving.


I think that's the crux, finding the place at which the points saving (and increased cost!) is neither too big nor too small.Yup, this seems to be the crux - finding the point where the basic (cheapo or power-gamed) version is an acceptably high price without invalidating the additional cost for up-gunning the weapon options.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:46 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 09 2008,16:39)
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Would it be a true nerf if the titans were made slightly cheaper at the same time as dropping their ranges to 45cm though?

No. But it would be lots of retesting that few people are keen to do.

- I've always found Missile Launchers (Especially multiples) to be comparatively weak, and not worth an equivilent number of other comparable weapons (Turbolaser, Gatling, etc).

A 725 point warlord with 12 BP and 2 extra blast markers (or 9bp, 1 extra bm and a VMB) would be fine in my book :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:47 pm 
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A 725 point warlord with 12 BP and 2 extra blast markers would be fine in my book :)


I think I'll try that one in my game tonight and see how it runs.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:55 pm 
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I find Warlords of any type have to the core of the army and everything else run around them. Prob the 3 Rockets/1 VMB would be better fit if you are using it aggressively. Make sure that you are heading for a cluster of three objectives (you get to place two of them, make sure they are near another and of course place them on the half way line!) and let the reaver/warhounds continue onto the blitz if nessecery. Oh and ensure other units are AT armed to shoot armour as the Warlord would be tooled for mostly anti infantry.

If I could make the list more assaulty a 3 plasm blastgun armed Reaver could be interesting, would have to get an assault turn two and support at least once to make it worth while though.

3 Rocket launcher Reaver could be good as well, cheaper and faster than the warlord.

I'm just sad I can't be there attacking you with your own list :(

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Ginger
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:55 pm 
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As a complete aside, the picture of the Warlord has raised a query:-

All such pictures (and indeed models) display these beasts with their main weapons roughly horizontal. I presume that there are mechanisms that prevent them from pointing at the ground (to stop them knee-capping themselves :p ) - so, there must be a reasonably large "blind spot" by their feet. Indeed, in WWII small US PT boats did indeed run *under the guns* of Japanese warships in some of the pacific engagements.

Soooo; Why do War Engines generally have the same CC and FF values??? One would have thought they should follow normal AV patterns by having 6+CC values - - - no?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: To beard him in his lair!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:57 pm 
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They step on you! :)

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