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Knights

 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:48 pm 
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Alansa, you misunderstand me. Essentially I was agreeing with you about the knights being medieval enough. I m well aware of the 40k background and the feudal nature of the Imperium.

A suggestion for the similarities between Eldar and Imperial knights could simpy be that both were created by societies on similar worlds to perform similar functions, i.e. in the background, fighting megasaurs and each other. Given that eldar tech is completely different involving psycho plastics etc, it seems a bit far fetched that Imperials manage to use the technology so commonly.

I also don't see the need to completely reject the background.


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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:51 pm 
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If the Knightworlds produce their own Knights why should they fight for the Forgeworlds?

The Forgeworlds bestow the Knightworlds with Knightsuits, the Knightworlds bestow the Forgeworlds with food.
Thats the way it is and should.

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:40 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 16 2008,16:01)
QUOTE
'Peasant' war engines ala trebuchets and ballistas (Stationary artillery platforms?)

Castles (Able to have stationary war-engine 'forts'?)

Wow.  That's a little more medieval than I imagined.  Particularly the two I quoted.

Are there any other stationary units in Epic, beyond Nid hive nodes? (Sorry, not well versed in most of the other lists)  Do they work well?

Do you literally mean trebuchets and ballistae?  I don't think (or know if) they should be given powerful field artillery, but would those examples be like spitting into the wind, background-wise?

I can imagine peasants dragging field artillery into place, but I'm having trouble imagining how 'castles' get there.  As permanent or semi-permanent stone-or-wood structures that the word conjures up, anyway.
The next thing that came to mind was a tracked or wheeled castle or seige tower - something similar to a much-depowered plague tower or inquisition mobile fortress.  Even a depowered Chaos altar.  I thought DC1 or 2 and slow - 5-10cm.  But does a knight list need any more DC1-2 WEs...?
Of course, you could keep the stats similar or with a little decrease, and use it as the list's large WE.  If that's not going over the top.
The thing that came to mind after that was the inquisition drop fortress, but that may be too OTT as well.  I dunno.


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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:33 pm 
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Do you literally mean trebuchets and ballistae?


No, just looking for peasant analogues... so they'd get stationary artillery platforms, rather than higher-tech mobile artillery.

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:18 pm 
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An interesting, if somewhat circular debate here - so where is this going? How do the various themes work out in the army lists - what "special" ability / unit etc does this provide?

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:20 pm 
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Having put together the AMTL and the Skitarii army list... it now falls to me to put together a Knight-based army list, as informed by the ideas and discussions of this thread.

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:12 am 
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I started to rough one out a couple months ago, though I didn't make it too far.  Feel free to use anything you see here or not, as you see fit.  

Knight Core Formations
Paladin Household 3 Knights Paladin Paladin, Seneschal, Baron 250pts
Lancer Household3 3 Knights Lancer Lancer, Seneschal, Baron 250pts
Errant Household3 3 Knights Errant Errant, Seneschal, Baron 250pts
Men at Arms Infantry Company: Imperial Guard Command unit plus nine Siege Infantry units 125 points

Knight Support Formations
Crusader Household3 3 Knights Crusader None 500pts
Castellan Household3 3 Knights Castellan None 500pts
Warden Household: 3 Knights Warden None ???pts
Men at Arms Cavalry Platoon: Six Rough Rider units None 150 points
Men at Arms Bike Platoon: Six Imperial Guard Bikes Squads None ???pts
Flak Battery: Three Hydra None 150 points
Praetorian Combat Servitor Cohort2 8 Praetorians Chimeras?, Sacristan 300pts

Knight Upgrades
Seneschal: Upgrade one Knight to be a Seneschal of that type 50pts
0-1 Baron: Add a Baron to the formation 200pts
Paladin: Add 3 Knights Paladin 200pts
Lancer: Add 3 Knights Lancer 200pts
Errant: Add 3 Knights Errant 200pts
Sacristan: ???
Chimeras: ???

Imperial Navy Aircraft
Two Thunderbolt Fighters 150 points
Two Marauder Bombers 300 points

Titan Legion Battlegroups
One Warlord Class Titan 850 points
One Reaver Class Titan 650 points
One to Two Warhound Titans 250 points each


Other possible units to include:
Hellhounds
Griffon?





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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:52 am 
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(Bub @ Mar. 16 2008,19:48)
QUOTE
Alansa, you misunderstand me. Essentially I was agreeing with you about the knights being medieval enough. I m well aware of the 40k background and the feudal nature of the Imperium.

A suggestion for the similarities between Eldar and Imperial knights could simpy be that both were created by societies on similar worlds to perform similar functions, i.e. in the background, fighting megasaurs and each other. Given that eldar tech is completely different involving psycho plastics etc, it seems a bit far fetched that Imperials manage to use the technology so commonly.

I also don't see the need to completely reject the background.

Actually I hadn't really considered how the knight armour came to be... I guess they could have derived from eldar technology. Then again they could also have been developed during the ages of technology without eldar help and are coincidentally similar to eldar knights? I dunno.

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:54 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Mar. 16 2008,19:51)
QUOTE
If the Knightworlds produce their own Knights why should they fight for the Forgeworlds?

The Forgeworlds bestow the Knightworlds with Knightsuits, the Knightworlds bestow the Forgeworlds with food.
Thats the way it is and should.

Food..... or other "produce", depending on the type of planet the Knight comes from. Raw materials or component parts for titans and other war machines for example.

---

Just a thought. If Warhammer 40k is a galactic analogue to Warhammer (Eldar = Elves, Orks = Orcs, Chaos Space Marines = Chaos Knights etc etc) does this mean that the Knight army list is to be the 40k versions of Bretonians?!? LOL!

Not that I would mind if it was!





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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:06 pm 
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I require a name for the army list gentlemen.

The moment we have one, I will upload a list for community evaluation.

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:09 pm 
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"House Hyperion Knight Houshold Army List"

Because i both like the name and the colour scheme :)

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:15 pm 
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That'll do for today. :)

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:24 pm 
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I should have posted this long ago, but I didn't think of it until just today.  The knight list my friend put together included a lot of background he had cobbled together from various sources.  I never posted it with the mechanics, but I think it should be useful as reference.

Also, it just occurred to me that these were created back when there was much more "40K as sci-fi version of the WFB world," i.e. space-elves, space-dwarves, space-orks, etc..  The 40K knights can be looked at as a sort of 40K version of the Bretonians, so it might be worth considering them in that light when thinking about what direction to take them.

========

2.0 ? Background
(by Andy Chambers, excerpted from WD 126)

Knights are fast-moving powerful war machines, thirty to forty feet tall and controlled by a single warrior, that fight on the battlefields of the Horus Heresy in the service of both Eldar and Human armies. Recruited from feral worlds where lesser versions of these machines are used to herd mighty Megasaurs, Knights take to the field of war alongside other members of their noble families. With their devastating visor-mounted psychic and shock lances, the mere gaze of a Knight can bring death to its enemies.

THE BIRTH OF THE ELDAR KNIGHTS

Long before the Dark Age of Technology, Eldar seed ships visited numerous barren as planets. These inhospitable worlds were prepared for the long process of terraforming and then seeded with the essential ingredients to sustain of life. The Eldar plan was to create new worlds to colonize in thousands of year?s time. These worlds were known to the Eldar as Lilaethan or Maiden Worlds.

As their civilization neared its collapse, a number of Eldar groups denounced the easy decadence offered by Chaos and abandoned the home-worlds in a series of migrations they called the Exodus, referring to themselves as Exodites. These groups traveled far away and colonized the Lilaethan, determined to escape the terrible fall of their a race that they had foreseen. On their arrival, the Exodites split into individual clans each led by a warrior elite.

The struggle for survival on these worlds was indeed grim. To enable them to deal with the harsh conditions, the Exodites converted the sleek war machines they had brought with them into tall walkers, which they piloted across their new planets, tending the virgin worlds. The ruling warrior Elite gradually developed a system of status and honor, which brought about the society now known as the Eldar Knights. Dwelling in tall keeps, the Knights strove to hasten the planets' evolution and bring life and order out of the primeval maelstrom.

After the Eldar Fall, the craftworlds sought out the colonists to offer them a place on board. The Exodites coldly told their craftworld brethren that they preferred to stay where life was simple if harsh, and the dangers were obvious. Though the craftworlds and Exodite colonies trade with one another, the Exodites still maintain that the easy lifestyle on the craftworlds is dangerously close to that which brought the downfall of their race.

In order to produce the food necessary to trade with the craftworlds, the oceans of the planets were seeded with algae to form vast floating weed beds. These weed beds and the lush vegetation of the primitive jungles provided nourishment for docile brontosaurus-like herd beasts called Megasaurs created by the Knights through cloning and genetic engineering. The Megasaurs in turn provided protein-rich food for the craftworlds. The herds were shepherded by the Knights in their machine-bodies, protecting the Megasaurs from predators and moving them from place to place to feed. On occasion, the Knights of different clans would clash over watering rights or border disputes, though combat took an almost ritualized form intended more to hone the Knights' skills than bring about bloodshed.

THE COMING OF MEN

During the Dark Age of Technology, scouts from Earth traveled far through the galaxy seeking planets to be used as agricultural worlds to provide food for the huge hiveworlds of Humanity. They copied the farming techniques used by the Eldar Knights already living on some of the worlds discovered. In a period referred to by the Exodites as The Coming of Men, the Eldar and Human colonists clashed in a series of bloody wars as the Eldar Knights sought to protect their homes from the interlopers.

When these planets were cut off in the Age of Strife, they became feral worlds. A warrior aristocracy grew up on the Human worlds, mimicking the lifestyle of the Eldar clans. The wealth of the noble Human houses and Eldar clans was based on their herds and much herd raiding went on. The herds were greatly reduced in size, but as the only readily available food source, were just as important.

While the Eldar shared their duties equally throughout the clan, the Human nobility enforced a feudal system on those below them. A sub-class of Drovers looked after the herds, as the nobles would not soil their hands with such work. Law did not, arm the Drovers' walkers with weapons even though they lived in constant danger from raiders and predators. This ensured that the Drovers had to rely on the Knights of the nobility for protection and nullified any chance of revolt.

As well as the nobles, each house could field large numbers of men at arms, either mounted on horses or on foot. These were equipped much like Planetary Defense Force and Imperial Guard units elsewhere in the Imperium, though with not nearly as many heavy weapons. When the nobles grew too old to carry on fighting in the harry and slash of raiding or the swirling melee of battle they would give their armor to their eldest son and take instead the armor of a Warden. Wardens formed the steadiest element within the noble houses, usually found defending the keep or protecting the Drovers.

On many of the worlds, groups of artificers and technicians became the most important of the nobles' subjects. They initially simply maintained the Knights for the nobles but soon learnt to speak with one voice, threatening to withdraw their services from any Lord who failed to take heed. They styled themselves as priesthood for the half forgotten mysteries of technology and were called Sacristans. As their power grew, they arbitrated between the different houses to ensure they did not wipe one another out in bitter feuds. The ever-present dangers of their worlds meant the Knights could not survive wars of attrition and genocide, and this necessitated the use of chivalric values to settle disputes. Eventually the Sacristans on many worlds ritualized the virtues of Honor, Duty and Valor and passed on these traditions from generation to generation. With the acceptance of these values the nobles became known as The Chivalry.

In addition to the threat posed by hostile houses, the Chivalry had to fight constant battles against swift Carnosaurs, which preyed upon the herds. Hunting the Carnosaurs honed their fighting skills to a deadly art, preparing them for the periods of violent warp activity, which created monstrous mutated beasts. When such a beast was sighted, all the Chivalry would go on quests to seek out and destroy the creature before it tainted the land.

THE REDISCOVERY

Thousands of years later, the planets were brought back into the Imperium. When Rogue Trader Jeffers rediscovered the agriworlds he referred to their inhabitants as Knights, pointing out their many Knightly virtues as he emphasized the worlds' value to the Empire both as a massive food resource and as a source of born and bred warriors. The Administratum agreed with Jeffers' findings and quickly set about rediscovering the rest of the long-lost agriworlds. To their delight, they found that two in three of the originally settled worlds were still occupied by Humans working along very similar social lines. The remaining worlds were either occupied by both Eldar and Human Knights or held exclusively by clans of Eldar Knights with strong links to the craftworlds, trading natural raw materials for technology.

Often, a Knight world would be affiliated to a Titan forgeworld, producing food for it, while the Sacristans would come under the control of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Other Knight worlds were left with a large degree of autonomy, required only to produce food and obey the call to arms when given.

The Imperial Cult was introduced in such a way that the Chivalry could be called on by the Empire to enter a crusade. Old rivalries forgotten, the Knights (especially younger ones) would form family units to fight with Titan Orders or the Imperial Guard.

Young Knights sometimes don't have their own armor, but train on that of their father. When fighting in a crusade they are given their own armor, built on a Titan forgeworld. Once they return home they are able to keep the armor and form their own house.

Titan Orders and the Imperial Guard often field units of Knights. During the Horus Heresy, Knights fought on both sides - many of the agriworlds declared allegiance to Warmaster Horus and were only brought back into the Imperium after decades, even centuries, of terrible armed struggle.

Knights usually fight as single units from each house, which means they are usually seen in large groups. After a period of time on crusade, the Chivalry can return home, well rewarded with loot and new armor. Normally the Wardens stay on the homeworld to protect the keep but occasionally they have taken the field when required, more than compensating for their age with stoic tenacity.

In some cases, Knights bring units of men-at-arms with them. These are re-equipped by the Order or Regiment, often having their horses replaced with bikes. They act in close support of the Knight formations and as scouts for the Order.

KNIGHT SUITS

Knight suits are similar to Titans in that they are controlled through a direct mind link. Imperial Titans are imprinted with a feral personality, which must be dominated by the Princeps in order to control the machine. The Titan's personality is there to handle all the mundane tasks in operating such a machine, like balancing and walking, leaving the Princeps free to concentrate on more important things.

Human Knight suits do not have a permanently imprinted personality. Instead the Knight sits in a throne, which is imprinted with aspects of his own personality. The throne is plugged in to the armored Knight suit and may be transferred from one Knight suit to another, though this is a rare occurrence usually only undertaken if the old suit is damaged beyond repair or the Knight wishes to become a Warden, passing on his old Knight suit to a younger relation. Imprinting your personality on a throne is a lengthy, sometimes dangerous, business. It has become a rite of passage for young nobles - this is how they become an adult. When he is old enough, a noble son who wishes to become a Squire undertakes a vigil in the family's chapel or sacristy, remaining seated in the throne throughout the long night. The ancient thrones and battle banners of his forefathers, which are kept in the sacristy, reminding him of the long traditions of honor and chivalry he is expected to maintain, surround him. The imprinting process tends to exaggerate dominant aspects of the young noble's personality, especially with regard to the way he is feeling during his vigil. If he is scared, the personality imprint will always be scared, making the suit difficult to control in combat. If the noble is angry with someone (say a brother who made fun of the noble before his vigil) the personality imprint will always hate that person, even if the noble has got over it.

When a noble dies, his throne retains some of his character. Nobody else can use it to control the suit until they have overlaid their personality onto the throne. It is still possible, however, to communicate with the personalities in the throne. Thus they are often kept and placed in the family's sacristy, a direct link with the ancestors of a noble house. It is the height of dishonor to deny a family the opportunity to salvage the thrones of Knights who have fallen in battle and the family will go to any lengths to get them back.

Note that the unarmed suits used by herdsmen are not controlled in the same way. They have a simple mind-link like that used on a Dreadnought. This makes them slow, lumbering machines when compared to the sleek thoroughbreds used by the nobles. The Sentinel walker used by the Imperial Guard is in fact a copy of the tried and tested Drover suit adapted for combat with the addition of basic armament.

Though there are, many different designs of Knight suit, a common feature to all except Warden suits is the lance. The lance is a short ranged area weapon developed from devices used for herding Megasaurs. To affect the dull nervous systems of Megasaurs, lances needed to be very powerful. The war lances used by Knights in battle discharge all their tremendous power in a single cataclysmic blast, making them a weapon much feared by their opponents. The lance is always mounted in the Knights' visor, a practice that has given Knights a reputation of being able to kill with a single glance.

Knights are rapidly moving war machines, able to advance swiftly across the battlefield, deploying their heavy firepower to devastating effect. They are frequently used to forge ahead of the main formation to spearhead an attack or secure an important position. During a battle, these highly mobile hard-hitting units may be ordered to make flanking attacks, out-maneuvering slower-moving enemy forces, and can be quickly redeployed whenever a new or unexpected threat is posed.

There are three levels of status for Knights: Squire, Knight and Lord (Warriors of the Lord status are known as Seneschals).

FORMATIONS

All Knights are organized into detachments of three or more machines. The Knights in each detachment belong to a single noble house, though it's possible that a large house may be represented by more than one detachment. In major battles it is not unknown for large houses to field up to thirty kinsmen, although six to eight is more usual. Though many of the houses have blood-ties extending back hundreds of years, there is much lingering distrust between the numerous houses. Thus, if Knights are fighting on both sides in a battle, all the Knights fighting together on one side will be allied or related houses battling out a bloodfeud against age-old enemies.

Human Knights are always fielded in detachments containing only one class of Knight. It is traditional for each household to use; either Knight Paladins or Knight Lancers rather than a mix of the two, although large houses often fight with both classes in separate detachments. All the truly great noble houses, legendary names such as Hawkwood, Beaumaris, Arundel, Mortimer and Warwick, have the resources to call on Knights of any class: Paladins, Lancers and the stern, unflinching Wardens. Lesser families may only have a few Knight suits of a single class, worn by the finest of their warriors.

HERALDRY

Each of the Imperial noble houses that field Knights has a livery of two colors. They use these, with adapted Imperial heraldry, to denote rank. Squires use the basic livery color (usually the color that is dominant on the household's banner). Knights use the basic color halved with the secondary color, and Lords use the two colors in a quartered pattern. The actual areas painted in different colors vary from house to house and between the different designs of Knight, but the basic pattern is always retained. Wardens are usually colored all white, with a single panel in their household colors in a pattern appropriate to their rank. Emblems on the war machines and their banners are adapted from the main household banners. These banners usually show a heroic ancestor in battle with a mythological monster as their central image. Campaign banners and emblems are often added while the Knights are on crusade with Imperial forces.

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:52 am 
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hmmm... cool info, Neal.

Well, the new Sentinel actually has control sticks, not a MIU, but other than that, your data should be directly usable!

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:26 pm 
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that is really cool, neal hunt. well scavanged:)
i dont see any problem in using this fluff nowadays.

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