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Knights

alansa

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:14 pm

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(BlackLegion @ Mar. 15 2008,00:25)

QUOTE

The current SG Warhound and Reaver are Mars Pattern. The bulky SG Warlord, FW Reaver and FW Warhounds are Lucius pattern.

And it was on Mars where the first Titans where build not Lucius.

Titans predate the imperium.

Lucius style is clearly something from the Dark Ages - no innovation on the part of Lucius but perhaps a rediscovery?

The gothic style was invented after the Dark Age. Mars, and many other planets, may have been knocking out what we now call "Lucius pattern" titans for millenia - before the formation of the Imperium, the entry into a "medeival period" and the adoption of a new gothic style.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:18 pm

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As far as I know that's speculation Alansa.

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alansa

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:27 pm

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(Pariah Press @ Mar. 15 2008,03:27)

QUOTE

I've been poring over all of the Knight fluff for months now, and I'll just post a few thoughts. ?

?The Knight Worlds' place within the society of the Imperium is as "colonies" of sorts of the Forge World. ?Each Forge World has a number of Knight Worlds under its control. ?The Knight Worlds provide the Forge World with raw materials (food and minerals were mentioned). ?The Forge World provides the Knight Worlds with manufactured goods (especially, and most importantly for Epic players, Knight suits). ?

?Sometimes the Knights go on crusade with the Titan Legion and Skitarii of the Forge World. ?

?Each Knight World typically has several Houses of Knights. ?Rivalries exists between Houses, but they rarely erupt into outright warfare. ?The Sacristans (the guys who repair the Suits) withdraw support from Houses who don't play nice. ?

?The Men at Arms (peasant soldiers) are equipped much like the Imperial Guard (or Skitarii) but with fewer heavy weapons. ?The Knights cannot maintain control over their inferiors if those inferiors are sufficiently-armed that they can destroy the Knight Suits. ?Perhaps something like heavy stubbers for Men at Arms? ?Rough Riders and Bikes would be good, too. ?

?Drovers herd the megasaurs, using unarmed Sentinel-like vehicles. ?They depend upon the Knights to protect them from dangerous fauna, aliens, etc. ?(Armed) sentinels should NOT be included in the army list, IMO. ?

?Knight Worlds ARE backward! ?Colonies are ALWAYS backward, to their developed colonizers.

?Any Knight Army List should ABSOLUTELY contain stats for EVERY type of Knight every produced, including the old Warden. ?No excuses! ?

Sounds like you're a conservative and want to keep things exactly as they where. You're entitled to that of course.

Me - I think GW have fixed many mistakes in the Imperial background by attempting to improve the integrity of it's component parts with the core vision. And should continue to do so. (Though some fools have amde plenty of mistakes since with regard to other races)

The old knightly material made the mistake of seeing their worlds as medieval, within an more advanced galaxy. But the imperium itself is medieval. So you have medieval worlds within a medieval "world". That's just redundant.

Obviously the strong influence that the Adeptus Mechanicus has over certain 'noble' families, especially with regard to the maintanence of their Suits of Armour and with regards to many other 'favours' should certainly be maintained. Causing the Knights to fight for the AM when called.

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alansa

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:30 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 15 2008,12:18)

QUOTE

As far as I know that's speculation Alansa.

It is E&C. I fully admit it. But it is entirely consistant with the wider background.

We all know that the Dark Age has more to do with "Future World" than 30k onwards does.

And Lucius/Battletech represents "Future World" - to my mind. Thus they originated in the Dark Age

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:57 am

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AFAIK the Titan technology doesn't come from the Dark Ages. Titans where built during the Dark Milennium on Mars. No other planet has build them.
Only after the Emperor rejoinded with Mars and the Great Cursade began other rediscovered and newly colonised Forgeworld where able to built Titans.

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Pariah Press

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:42 am

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(alansa @ Mar. 15 2008,12:27)

QUOTE

Sounds like you're a conservative and want to keep things exactly as they where. You're entitled to that of course.

Me - I think GW have fixed many mistakes in the Imperial background by attempting to improve the integrity of it's component parts with the core vision. And should continue to do so. (Though some fools have amde plenty of mistakes since with regard to other races)

The old knightly material made the mistake of seeing their worlds as medieval, within an more advanced galaxy. But the imperium itself is medieval. So you have medieval worlds within a medieval "world". That's just redundant.

Obviously the strong influence that the Adeptus Mechanicus has over certain 'noble' families, especially with regard to the maintanence of their Suits of Armour and with regards to many other 'favours' ?should certainly be maintained. ?Causing the Knights to fight for the AM when called.

I was really just summarizing what I'd read, but I did interject a few personal comments in there, too. ?

?I agree that the Imperium is essentially medieval in its outlook, but I don't really see how that makes the Knight Worlds redudant. ?Medieval planets in a medieval galaxy. ?Sounds like a good fit to me! ?

As far as Space Marines as knights go, I can sorta see it, but not so much. Black Templars are obviously knights, but Space Wolves are vikings, Ultramarines are Roman Legionnaires, Dark Angels are monks, etc. I think that there's plenty of room for the knightly archtype to fit into the fabric of the Imperium.

?The Knights, to me, represent the "glorious days of chivalry" in all of their splendour and squalor. ?They should be intent on personaly combat. ?Perhaps thei should be denied supporting fire. ?

?And yes, I am a bit conservative about the background. ?I don't see any point in making radical changes to the Knights' background just for the sake of it. ?The point of these army lists is to make it easier for people to play with their old armies and to give newer players more options, not to fix perceived flaws in the background material.

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ragnarok

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:19 am

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(BlackLegion @ Mar. 15 2008,23:57)

QUOTE

AFAIK the Titan technology doesn't come from the Dark Ages. Titans where built during the Dark Milennium on Mars. No other planet has build them.
Only after the Emperor rejoinded with ?Mars and the Great Cursade began other rediscovered and newly colonised Forgeworld where able to built Titans.

I thought all forgeworlds were able to build titans before being re found by mars.

Wren't the colonised during the age of strife when the Warp storms were at their weakest.

I am sure that I read somewhere that mars would send out massive colony fleets whenever the warpstorms grew weaker, each one with its own titan legions. A few that made it past the storms became forgewrolds and would keep in contact with Mars and download all new designs to the central ark.

In this memory of mine the knight worlds were the worlds near enough to forgeworlds to be able to be reaches, even with warp storms (such as in the ultramar empire) and were used to supply food to the forgeworlds. With the ruling families given knight suits as payment.

I can see them being called medievil becuase they would be backwards compared to the forgeworlds that they support.

Just like how rural people are considered simple by city dwellers.

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Kleomenes

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:02 pm

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I have to say I agree with Pariah Press on this. There is nothing substantively wrong with the pre-existing background IMO.

And if we are worried about overlapping historical stereotypes, technically the old knight background was early medieval france and england (c13th?) and the Imperium at large is high medieval germany and austria (c15th?) in theme anyway!

Personally I think the idea of the Ad-Mech controlling isolated planets pre-great crusade with access to technology, and then that injustice surviving due to the Ad-Mechs power within the imperium at large, is a cool idea. I have always liked the whole "Empire within an empire" vibe of the admech, and the knights are part of that.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:06 pm

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There is nothing substantively wrong with the pre-existing background IMO.

?Farm machinery use for herding dinosaurs, copied from Exodite technology, later taken to war by a feudal society? .

Does not compute, IMHO.

This thread has pointed out several ways in which we could work with the major elements of the background however, without it standing incongrous against the rest of today's 40k.

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alansa

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:22 pm

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Don't mind the 'empire within the empire' of the ad mech. As already mentioned the Imperium --- isn't!

There will be knights all over the Imperium, but yes we are only interested in those knights who are controlled or influenced by the ad-mech.

The French knight theme is really cool. Nobody could typify the medieval period more than a French Knight!

Still, apart from falling within the sphere of influence of the AM, I don't see any difference between an AM Knight's planet, and any other in the galaxy. To keep them overly backwards is unneccessary cheese to my mind, falling into the trap of thinking anything to do with knights must be backwards.

"Medieval planets in a medieval world" *is* a good fit - that' was my point. The entire imperium is, and evey planet is - even the most advanced. If a A hive world is like a 12c city and an agri world the fields about - it's still all medieval. A knight could just eas easily come from a hive world.

Space Marines are monastic space knights They Always where from the earliest background. They are small units, living in chapters - with great power over huge areas, virtually automanous and beholden to no one, belonging to the imperium only by that person who is the tatget of their devotion.

They ultramirines certainly are roman legion in style, and of course they once represented exactly that. Now, after the heresy, they're style has remained but their function is much changed.

Certainly they all a have different characters, but in practice most operate and have the same function is those knights in the holy land, or north east europe.
more like the chapters holy knights, Templars, Hosptilars, Teutonic etc.

If you read up about these chaps are a real rip-off by priestly a co. (Mixed in with a bit of starship-troopers and the like too)

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Vermis

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:48 pm

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Still, apart from falling within the sphere of influence of the AM, I don't see any difference between an AM Knight's planet, and any other in the galaxy. To keep them overly backwards is unneccessary cheese to my mind, falling into the trap of thinking anything to do with knights must be backwards.

Do you mean that any other planet in the galaxy is backwards too, or that knight worlds should be brought up to the social/technological level of other worlds?

If the latter, I'd put forward the argument that there isn't a concrete standard for an imperial world. ?I remember the couple of pages from the 3rd ed 40K book, detailing planetary types from advanced (so to speak) forge worlds and hive worlds, down to feudal/medieval worlds, feral worlds and death worlds. ?With those last two in mind, knight worlds aren't so badly off!

I'm not saying that knights or knight worlds should be exclusively medieval (the forge-working suit idea appealed to me); but if the majority of them are, or will be, I don't think it's an excercise in keeping them down, or that it's necessarily backward.
There could be some kind of He-Man/Eternia vibe to them.

EDIT: then you edited your post so my argument's fairly redundant. :laugh:

Anyway...

If you read up about these chaps are a real rip-off by priestly a co. (Mixed in with a bit of starship-troopers and the like too)

And Sardaukar.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:01 pm

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Okay.

So if we follow the (European) middle-ages imagery, we get something like:

Knights (Mechanised Knights, of course)

'Cavalry' (Rough Riders)

'Peasants' (Badly-equipped IG... 'siege' IG from Swordwind would be appropriate)

'Peasant' war engines ala trebuchets and ballistas (Stationary artillery platforms?)

Other medieval concepts that might be interesting to incorporate:

- Fondness for 'crusades'

- Religious associations (Priests? Commissar analogues?)

- Castles (Able to have stationary war-engine 'forts'?)

Hmmm....

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alansa

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:30 pm

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(Vermis @ Mar. 16 2008,11:48)

QUOTE

EDIT: then you edited your post so my argument's fairly redundant. :laugh:

?Anyway...

If you read up about these chaps are a real rip-off by priestly a co. (Mixed in with a bit of starship-troopers and the like too)

And Sardaukar.
I think that the medieval world typified by the imperium at large are the most "advanced" going. As you have guessed, technology isn't relevant here. It's more to do with the social, political, art, architecture, and religious attitudes. Even a planet like necromunda and the hives on it, are ruled by 'houses'. You can go from savages and feral up to medieval - but not beyond: or if you do, they're very rare!

This is why I don't like to think of Knights as backwards. They're all too current! You can even manage hugely powerful men, even planetary goveners being made Knights, and being call to fight for the Holy Emperor when the Ad Mech comes calling!

As I have always said though. This is just my reasoning. Certainly not GW gospal!

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:53 pm

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Well the original Knights backgroud fits just well (mostly i will come back to that).
Knight Worlds are Medieval Worlds. Thats Planets which a technology standart of ca the 13th/14th century mixed with a few high tech euipment (as Lasguns, medical care...at least for nobles, even cyborg-horses) but without the technology to build Knights which are build and repaired by the Forgeworlds.

It seems that one Forgeworld has begun to build Knight suits and other Forgeworlds have followed it to build their own Knights to supply their own medieval-style Agriworlds.

Off course this all must have happened during or after the Great Crusade because before that warptravel was impossible or both the Forgeworld and the Knightworld (the first and only then)have been in the same sun system.

The only problem i have is that the Knights are copied from Eldar Exodites. But then in those times there was no Adeptus Mechanicus. But would the AdMech had it alloweed to continue the production of xeno-tech based machines (=Knights)? Or is the AdMech not aware of the origin of the Knights and believe them to be Dark Ages technology?

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Pariah Press

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:25 pm

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I agree that the Eldar influence doesn't really jibe well with the revised super-xenophobic Imperial background. Just don't mention their influence; let the crotchety old-timers like myself rant about it occasionally. It gives us something to do.

The dinosaurs should be left in, though. With dinosaurs, the Knights' background encompasses two of Jes Goodwin's Cool Things: Robots and Dinosaurs. I don't really see how we could fit Ninjas and Pirates into the army list, but Spaceships might be a possibility!

I disagree about Knights coming from a Hive World. I really think that the Knight Worlds should be resource producers, not resource consumers.

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