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Knights

 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:13 pm 
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Hello, first post. I ve been scratchbuilding a knight world army. So far I ve got 6 paladins, 6 errants, 3 lancers and a baron. I ll try and post some pictures but they bascially consist of:
2 space marine backpacks stuck back to back for a torso. Space marine arms chopped up a lot for knight arms.
Legs, heads and feet made from variously shaped plasticard rods.

Personally I really like the idea of knight worlds being populated by massive dinosaur like creatures. While I agree knights herding dinosaurs isnt knightly, I d see the herds being looked after by sentinel drovers and rough riders. However the Knights could engage in hunting and fighting massive fearsome monsters that attack the herds. Even developing ritualised combat with particularly dangerous beasts.

I d quite like Knight worlds to be productive agri worlds but to really dangerous places, almost death worlds a bit like Skull Island in King Kong, full of giant monsters. They could be frontier worlds with a bit of a wild west feel. The people would be more hardy frontier ranchers fighting for survival against monsters that regularly devastate their lives. This makes the knights ability to fight the monsters more amazing to the locals, elevating them further above the populace and making them all the more revered.

The old Rogue Trader background had the knight pilots as being linked to their command throne in the actual machine. One way to emphasise the Knight houses and families could be to extended the machine spirit idea like in the Titan comic. The knight pilots that die imprint on the knights machine spirit, to the point that only pilots from the same family can be accepted by the machine spirit. This provides more of a division between the Knight household families and the general populace.


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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:48 pm 
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If the dinosaur fluff is kept (personally I think it's daft). then the dinos should be represented in the knightworld list. Formations of dinos with knights leading them. neat.

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:28 pm 
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I don't think the dinosaur fluff is too bad, as long as they're renamed 'saurians' or 'super-grox' or something (anything) else, if it's retained.


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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:47 pm 
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(Bub @ Mar. 13 2008,21:13)
QUOTE
Hello, first post. I ve been scratchbuilding a knight world army. So far I ve got 6 paladins, 6 errants, 3 lancers and a baron. I ll try and post some pictures but they bascially consist of:
2 space marine backpacks stuck back to back for a torso. Space marine arms chopped up a lot for knight arms.
Legs, heads and feet made from variously shaped plasticard rods.

Personally I really like the idea of knight worlds being populated by massive dinosaur like creatures. While I agree knights herding dinosaurs isnt knightly, I d see the herds being looked after by sentinel drovers and rough riders. However the Knights could engage in hunting and fighting massive fearsome monsters that attack the herds. Even developing ritualised combat with particularly dangerous beasts.

I d quite like Knight worlds to be productive agri worlds but to really dangerous places, almost death worlds a bit like Skull Island in King Kong, full of giant monsters. They could be frontier worlds with a bit of a wild west feel. The people would be more hardy frontier ranchers fighting for survival against monsters that regularly devastate their lives. This makes the knights ability to fight the monsters more amazing to the locals, elevating them further above the populace and making them all the more revered.

The old Rogue Trader background had the knight pilots as being linked to their command throne in the actual machine. One way to emphasise the Knight houses and families could be to extended the machine spirit idea like in the Titan comic. The knight pilots that die imprint on the knights machine spirit, to the point that only pilots from the same family can be accepted by the machine spirit. This provides more of a division between the Knight household families and the general populace.

It the risk of repeating myself. I don't go for the idea that Knights have to come from some kind of backwards planets which are differentiated from other planets by being feaudal, agricultural, ?and politcially, socially and technologically backwards.

This idea comes about because we think of knights as coming from the past - so their worlds must be backwards.

Not so. The Entire imperium is like this (just ask any Tau!)

Knights and their funny attitudes are not local to a few strange backwards worlds, but are a galaxy wide phenonom and entirely in keeping with the medieval nature of the imperium.

As already mentioned. The imperium already has knights - space marines - though these are are rather of the religious, ?holy and monastic type.

As to hunting dinosaur type creatures. Some might. But as far as I can tell, Knights could come from almost any world and be involved in almost any kind of sport and industry.

Anyway my mine point is that knights aren't restricted to "worlds-that-time-forgot". They are entirely modern and current - from an imperial perspective.

Or to put it another way. Medievalism is modernity in the Imperium of Man!





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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:00 pm 
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Ok, I may have phrased my post badly. I agree the knightly aspect doesnt need any more emphasis. Personally I prefer the new look Lucius Pattern titans over the more medieval looking old ones. My models are lucius pattern inspired and I m really not a fan of helraldry all over giant robots. I m all for knight worlds not being backward places. I was talking about them being frontier worlds. I don't equate that to them being technologically backwards. I agree that Knights are advanced technology for the imperium and the idea of them coming from backwards planets doesnt fit.

However the previous background does contain elements that really appeal to me. Mainly the giant monsters. The background actually called them Megasaurs thought really they could be any type of monster you fancied making up not just dinosaurs.

The idea I like was more that Knight worlds were death worlds ala Catachan with the Knight suits being developed in response to the environment. Advanced technology and highly skilled warriors being necessary for societies to survive on such worlds.

About "the worlds that time forgot". Well true in the current day the Knight worlds are upto date integrated parts of the imperium but the background describes them as medieval worlds populated by giant megasaurs. Personally I don't really like the direct medieval concept in 40k. The best concepts are the ones where the writers mash a few different ideas together. So while I m not blown away by the medieval aspect, I do like the frontier, survivalist aspect which hasnt been previously emphasised and which I think makes them a bit more different in nature to Knightly space marine chapters.


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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:44 pm 
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Just something to inspire:




A Lucius style knight Titan someone kitbashed for 40k.

(This one is chaos-corrupted)

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:05 pm 
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Great googly-moogly!  Is that the side of a land raider?

Regardless, pretty nice!


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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:39 pm 
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Land Raider, Defiler & Imperial Sentinel, all... smooshed together.

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:41 pm 
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Looks like landraider, defiler and sentinel bitz

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:55 am 
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(Bub @ Mar. 14 2008,20:00)
QUOTE
Ok, I may have phrased my post badly. I agree the knightly aspect doesnt need any more emphasis. Personally I prefer the new look Lucius Pattern titans over the more medieval looking old ones. My models are lucius pattern inspired and I m really not a fan of helraldry all over giant robots. I m all for knight worlds not being backward places. I was talking about them being frontier worlds. I don't equate that to them being technologically backwards. I agree that Knights are advanced technology for the imperium and the idea of them coming from backwards planets doesnt fit.

However the previous background does contain elements that really appeal to me. Mainly the giant monsters. The background actually called them Megasaurs thought really they could be any type of monster you fancied making up not just dinosaurs.

The idea I like was more that Knight worlds were death worlds ala Catachan with the Knight suits being developed in response to the environment. Advanced technology and highly skilled warriors being necessary for societies to survive on such worlds.

About "the worlds that time forgot". Well true in the current day the Knight worlds are upto date integrated parts of the imperium but the background describes them as medieval worlds populated by giant megasaurs. Personally I don't really like the direct medieval concept in 40k. The best concepts are the ones where the writers mash a few different ideas together. So while I m not blown away by the medieval aspect, I do like the frontier, survivalist aspect which hasnt been previously emphasised and which I think makes them a bit more different in nature to Knightly space marine chapters.


Ok. There's no 'right' way to think about this.

All i'm doing is exploring the idea of knights in the general 40k theme and background. Naturally this might not be the best approach

The way I see Warhammer 40k is a reinterpretation of Warhammer, writ on a galactic scale, and like with Warhammer with bits of Tolkien mixed in. Apart from the tolkien bits, Warhammer itself is medieval europe. With a focus on the Holy Roman Empire.

The Imperium in 40k is the same thing - It's an exagerated, over the top and uber gothic for sure, but that is what it is.

If you don't like it then you're out of luck 'cause that's really what the Imperium is. Still, the galaxy is a large place....

Anyway with regard to knights: There are no knightly worlds. There are no rare and special cases where they come from. They are all over the place - just as they where in medieval europe. To my mind, they are part and parcel of the fabric of the imperium.

As to titan and knight armour design patterns. They could be Lucius - I call Lucius "Battletech style": Very "modern" very 21st century. Or knights could be more what a call Gothitech. Very "Ancient" very 12th century.

But that is to our eyes.
In the imperium it is the Gothitech that is more in vogue. The battletech looks more like something from the dark age of technology. But both is ok. The Battletech stuff is just more ancient! But it's the Gothic style tha'ts the modern stuff!!

When considering 40k, except with regard to the imperial guard, ?take yourself into *our* past to our 12 century. Only think of *our* future when you consider the tau! - To our eyes, in sooo many respects, 40k is in the past, not the future!

40k designers have made the same mistakes before of equating our idea of modernity with the 40k world. For goodness sake, in the old literature there even used to be Imperial Scientists and the like! Scientists! Heresy!
Still, these these mistakes have slowly been erased over the years

Anyway, on the subject of the frontier aspect that you enjoy. I don't really think it suit knights - not especially anyway.  Still it's pretty good for something like Rogue Traders... and many Space Marine chapters of course!

Just my opinions.....





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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:08 am 
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You get it a bit mixed.
Lucius (Battletech) pattern ist "modern" style and Mars (Gothitech) pattern is "old" and more valued style.
Yes this is strange but it is the way it is.

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:21 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Mar. 15 2008,00:08)
QUOTE
You get it a bit mixed.
Lucius (Battletech) pattern ist "modern" style and Mars (Gothitech) pattern is "old" and more valued style.
Yes this is strange but it is the way it is.

That really isn't the way I see it. Battletech clearly predates Gothitech, by many millenia!

You might think not, since the Lucius pattern titan game out after the old gothic beetleback. But that's looking at the a history of miniature styles of Games Workshop. Not the history in the 40k world!

Of in course in 40k history the Battletech style may have dropped for many millenia. And picked up up again recently by Lucius. Never the less, Lucius is just one forge world. In a medeival world, the Gothic must be the one generally in vogue and the dominant style!

As further evidence of which style is the most "Imperium modern" consider Battlefleet gothic. The Ultra gothic ships there supercede the older style. The way I see it only race that genrally has Battletech as modern is the Tau!

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:24 am 
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Lucius is supposed to be an 'up and coming' and innovative Forgeworld (They discovered and put into production the Macharius tank), and 'recently' began producing their own Baneblades & Baneblade variants.

That being said, the Mars style is probably more prevailent in the Imperium.

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:25 am 
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The current SG Warhound and Reaver are Mars Pattern. The bulky SG Warlord, FW Reaver and FW Warhounds are Lucius pattern.

And it was on Mars where the first Titans where build not Lucius.

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 Post subject: Knights
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:27 am 
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I've been poring over all of the Knight fluff for months now, and I'll just post a few thoughts. ?

?The Knight Worlds' place within the society of the Imperium is as "colonies" of sorts of the Forge World. ?Each Forge World has a number of Knight Worlds under its control. ?The Knight Worlds provide the Forge World with raw materials (food and minerals were mentioned). ?The Forge World provides the Knight Worlds with manufactured goods (especially, and most importantly for Epic players, Knight suits). ?

?Sometimes the Knights go on crusade with the Titan Legion and Skitarii of the Forge World. ?

?Each Knight World typically has several Houses of Knights. ?Rivalries exists between Houses, but they rarely erupt into outright warfare. ?The Sacristans (the guys who repair the Suits) withdraw support from Houses who don't play nice. ?

?The Men at Arms (peasant soldiers) are equipped much like the Imperial Guard (or Skitarii) but with fewer heavy weapons. ?The Knights cannot maintain control over their inferiors if those inferiors are sufficiently-armed that they can destroy the Knight Suits. ?Perhaps something like heavy stubbers for Men at Arms? ?Rough Riders and Bikes would be good, too. ?

?Drovers herd the megasaurs, using unarmed Sentinel-like vehicles. ?They depend upon the Knights to protect them from dangerous fauna, aliens, etc. ?(Armed) sentinels should NOT be included in the army list, IMO. ?

?Knight Worlds ARE backward! ?Colonies are ALWAYS backward, to their developed colonizers.

?Any Knight Army List should ABSOLUTELY contain stats for EVERY type of Knight every produced, including the old Warden. ?No excuses! ? :D





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