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How are these boards viewed?
Legion 4
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:54 pm 
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Well I think to a point as Rug said, many guys playing many rules. ?BUT as I said on other posts repeatedly ... DWWFY... And don't take things too seriously. ?Epic rules have always been a "living entity" for us. Taking things from all Epic versions and other games to become the rules we'd use if we play. Frankly, I'm more impressed with the DRM rules than even E:A ... And I set up my TO&Es (army lists) based mostly on the SM1 and a bit of SM2. ?So I really don't care what anybody does in the privacy of his own game room ... ?My buddy 3rdI and I think SM2/TL were the worse rule set of the lot. But if you like them - DWWFY ... They were G/W's biggest Epic Seller. So if the Tau or Necron, etc. rules don't work for you ... change it. "Adapt, overcome ..." ?IIRC, somewhere in the E40K rules and in the working concepts of E:A, both Jervis and Andy said, basically, these are guidelines, DWWFY ... ?So DWWFY and have fun ! ?I know I'm twice as old as some of the Boyz on this site or at least 10 years older or so. So my life experiences based on past career are different from many here ... So take my word for it ... it ain't worth getting upset over who plays what and what color you paint your tanks, etc. ... Have Fun ! ?:;):




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pixelgeek
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:12 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Mar. 07 2008,07:12)
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I concur that the lack of leadership has been a factor. Especially for Marines, an army champ is needed to resolve disputes.

Lack of direction and a lack of a driving force is a problem in some of the lists but leadership does not resolve disputes.

While I think the forum is great for community discussion I think it really isn't that great for a discussion of rules issues. Not only do people tend to get very heated (or viewed as being very angry. I can't count the number of times I have written a post an a quick aside and had someone accuse me of being pissed off) and very set in their opinions but people here really seem to be of the "tweaker" mentality and focus on the minutia of problems.

This makes it very difficult to get to the actual problem involved in some game issues.

I think that the one thing that the Epic:A rules development process has shown us is that a large group of online playtesters isn't really all that efficient. The closed test that started this process would churn through points and then when it was opened to the public the rate of development and the quality of development went down.

I see the same thing here. The signal:noise ratio on the board is fairly huge and is caused in no small part to people making vague, hyperbolic, unsubstantiated claims about units or armies.

Comments like "unit X is totally overpowered" or "this formation is breaking the army list" or "there is no way to defend against X" have been pointed out time and again as being utterly useless feedback and yet they appear with clockwork regularity.

The number of people that want to provide reasoning for their comments is very small and these people are often drowned out by the "unit X is broken" crowd.

Things are never self-evident and no developer worth the title is going to change an army list or units stats because something is "totally overpowered" and yet when people are asked for feedback the majority of it is of that type.

Despite being specifically asked not to provide that type of feedback.

This isn't to say that the person in question might not actually be correct but there needs to be some sort of way to verify it and it is this verification that is typically the hard work but it is the critical work.

An example: the recent debate about the Chaos list has worked around an issue about the Obliterators. We've seen lots of "the Obliterators are overpowered" comments when it appears that the actual case is that Obliterators in Terminator formations backed up by daemons are the real balance  issue and not Obliterators in general.

Getting to that point has been like herding cats and it shouldn't be.

After all the years that we have collectively been testing rules the people in charge of the lists should not have to tell people that there is a type of good feedback and a type of bad feedback. We should all know this by now.

And it can't just be the ACs that do this. If the ACs do it then they are seen to be ignoring people or stifling discussion. The community here needs to get its act together in this regard and be self-policing in order to provide a better environment to people wanting to develop and expand the game.

Better feedback and comments help everyone and it also promotes a better atmosphere here. And that will help build the community and make this a place where we can get some productive work done.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:33 pm 
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I think the Chaos lists are a special case in some regards as debate has been shut down ever since the lists were made official.

Now that debate has been re-opened, there seems to have been a lot of pent-up opinions waiting to be released... my hat's off to pixelgeek for standing in the way off that onrush.

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Soren
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:23 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Mar. 07 2008,16:12)
QUOTE
I concur that the lack of leadership has been a factor. Especially for Marines, an army champ is needed to resolve disputes.

/signed

Here are some issues to solve, discussed regulary again and again but nobody really makes results worked out "sticky". So the cycle begins again and again. If you look at the threads, they have the same content periodically all 3 month to half a year.




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Chaplain Leviticus
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:40 pm 
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I have found TC to be rather encouraging and positive overall.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:17 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 07 2008,09:33)
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I think the Chaos lists are a special case in some regards as debate has been shut down ever since the lists were made official.

Well it wasn't "shut down" there just wasn't much point in any discussion.

Discussion has begun again primarily because of the amount of tournament and game experience that the list has seen.

Some people now have 40+ games under their belt with the current army which is enough to move it past the "new army" syndrome and get to the point where people have a decent amount of game experience.

I think that any public discussion prior to this would have not been very useful

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Tertius
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:55 am 
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A few comments. One, I think TacComms is an excellent site for painting and modelling inspiration. I have seen a lot of complements and helpful comments.
On the rules, side, as you all have pointed out, TacComms is not so great.  Not, I think because of the board, or the leadership, but because of the format and the goal.  First, the format.  Everyone posting to a common board at once, from all sorts of perspectives, leads to chaos and misunderstanding.  What works at the FLGS in British Columbia may be poor form in Florida or Cambridge.  I wonder whether the rules critique process would work better if all comments were sent PM or off-board to the moderator, and then culled and the most promising listed back on site.  This cycle would avoid the sniping (I think).  Second, the goal.  The goal is having a well-balanced playtested list.  With respect to those dedicated players who have 40+ games in, they may not be "playtesters" per se.  "Playtesting" and "Playing" are, in my experience, very different disciplines.  "Playtesting," unlike just playing, requires a fair-minded focus on both sides of a particular question.  "Playing" (particularly in tournaments) tends toward a one-sided zeal to crush out the opponent by any means necessary.  Fun, but not particularly useful to find balance in a system.

What does it all mean?  We should continue to complement one another in our hobby and encourage discusion.  As for rules, perhaps a more moderated format is better. Even so, I somehow wonder about the value of a uniform system being played in Paris and New Jersey, Bovington and Capetown.  Seems wierd to worry whether people on the other side of the Earth use the same house rules I do, particularly when we will likely never play together.

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Tas
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:25 am 
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What is TacComms?

For me, it is a place I can share my hobby and its various facets with people I have 'known' for up to 5 years.  Initially, it was Epic that drew me here, but I havent touched it for years now.  But Ive found other WW1 enthusiasts, fellow VSF nuts and some wonderfully gifted painters and modellers who can give me some sage advice or inspiration when I need it.

To other people it something else, and maybe it doesnt meet the expectations they have as a rules forum.  Sure, scratch that itch elsewhere and get 'productive'- but is that really the point?  If you want that, start a Yahoo group or go elsewhere for it where everyone else is of like mind and focused, dont complain that this isnt the place for that, because its definately the place for other things.  

For me its the community of friends here that makes TacComms what it is, not anything else.  And I'd like to say thanks again to Cybershadow and everyone else who helps runs this place

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:34 pm 
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Many thanks for the responses and sentiments expressed. A few comments...

The problem with a moderated queue (and this is something that we can do here) is that it then puts a lot of pressure on the moderator, and leads down the path that opinions not meeting the moderators experiences are edited out, which seems unfair.

Any rules development must, by necessity, be tournament focussed. By this, I dont mean strictly turn up and play for points and do anything to win, but this is only way that we can assume that people are using the same rules, 'out of the box'.

Personally, I would rather have an inclusive philosophy with disagreements than one that is narrow focussed/minded. You are correct that attempting to legislate for groups in different countries, at different events with different styles is like trying to herd cats.

I am not naive enough to believe that development will ever be...

01 - I say, chaps, I think that....
02 - Oh, jolly good show. I agree.
03 - Thirded. Marvelous idea.
04 - How about....
02 - Excellent call...


:D

This place is seen sometimes as 'cliquey' and, to a certain extent it is. That said, I look back at some threads by new members and they almost invariably get a warm welcome with their first post.

I think that the view of these boards appears to depend on whether you are here for painting, or for rules.

Rules are naturally more competitive as everyone has their own opinion on what to do, a change in the document has the potential to affect the game that you play at home.

If Epic is to survive, and if this place is to prosper, I think that we need to be more inclusive. There will always be groups who just dont like these boards, but I would like to make it easier for all Epic players to get something positive from this place.

Thanks.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:21 pm 
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(Tas @ Mar. 11 2008,04:25)
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What is TacComms?

For me, it is a place I can share my hobby and its various facets with people I have 'known' for up to 5 years.  Initially, it was Epic that drew me here, but I havent touched it for years now.  But Ive found other WW1 enthusiasts, fellow VSF nuts and some wonderfully gifted painters and modellers who can give me some sage advice or inspiration when I need it.

To other people it something else, and maybe it doesnt meet the expectations they have as a rules forum.  Sure, scratch that itch elsewhere and get 'productive'- but is that really the point?  If you want that, start a Yahoo group or go elsewhere for it where everyone else is of like mind and focused, dont complain that this isnt the place for that, because its definately the place for other things.  

For me its the community of friends here that makes TacComms what it is, not anything else.  And I'd like to say thanks again to Cybershadow and everyone else who helps runs this place

Well stated, sir.  :cool:

For me TacComm is a community of friends as well, some of whom I've had the pleasure of meeting in person. It still boggles my mind that I've made friends with fellow gamers all over the world, even if it is only through cyberspace.

Also, being a rules forum is only a small part. Seeing all of the impressive work posted here has truly inspired me to become a better painter and even to (gasp!) consider doing simple conversions. And even though 6mm is really the only scale I'm interested (despite the temptation of VSF courtesy of Mr. Tas and Mr. Vanvlak  :D ) I do enjoy seeing minis painted for other scales and games.

I have no doubts that Epic will survive.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:18 pm 
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I'm in agreement again with a lot of the comments here. I'm here 2-3 times a day (cause I have no life !), and enjoy the modelling and eclectic dicussions. As well as the trading, which I feel helps everybody out with organizing their forces. Plus the comradeship becuase we mostly are interested in many of the same things and generally we're a "bunch of good guys/Boyz/Blokes/gents/etc.  And there is a certain level of "maturity"* here not seen on some other sites.  *(as mature as playing with toy soldiers can be !)  I feel Epic/6mm Sci-fi is much more of a "Wargame" where games like 40K is just an expensive "beer & pretzel game". So a more "discerning" gamers shows up here, IMO ... and stay.  But that being said, I can also show off my 'Uge Epic collection ! And display my "Massive" knowlegde of Epic, War Gaming, history, modeling, and the military to sooth my ? century failing, fragile and almost non-exsist ego !  :laugh: :)  :D  :;):     But as always - DWWFY !  :cool:

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TheLimey
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:00 pm 
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I'm relatively new here, and I was glad to see a home for Epic that wasn't just the SG forum. Yes, things have got heated, but as pointed out, this is a worldwide community, and we may not all play the same way.

It is one of the better forums out there, and again, the nature of Epic is part of that, being a more thoughtful game with a more honest attempt to avoid power gaming.

I've never felt pushed out of anything, I've been listened to even when I have said something daft, and I've gone from one half complete army into something more like the rest of y'all, namely 6 half complete armies.

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