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How are these boards viewed?
CyberShadow
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:45 am 
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I hope that this original poster will forgive me, but this comment came up...

Trying to provide feedback and bounce ideas on these boards is really tiresome. I've mostly stopped; occasionally, when prodded by Hena or rpr, I write something and then try to forget it. Getting into arguments here almost always feels like a waste of time and almost always seems to merely result in frustration.


Now, this is not the first time that I have heard about this.

Really, this kind of perception troubles me. I wonder if people could tell me if they feel this way (privately, if they would prefer), and I wonder if we can have a group discussion on what may be causing this opinion and what we can do to combat it.

Thanks.

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Mark_Logue
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:21 pm 
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I have to admit I can see where people are coming from.

I have found people on the boards to be really possitive and supportive to anyone posting painting, conversion and terrain projects.

However I find that rules discussions can feel a little heated.  I am sure it is not meant as personal but I am sure people could take things that way.  People can develop very strong opinions about rules issues which can vary widely as different solutions suit different groups and styles of play.  I think it is always going to be awkward trying to get rules right in a colaberative international forum as styles of play, rules interpretations and army lists are likely to differ widely between playing groups.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:39 pm 
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I feel that at least some of the bad feeling is spilling across from those areas of rules debate that have lacked strong leadership. For example, probably the most heated debates tend to be centred around the Marine army list; In the absense of someone to make the call and say 'okay, we'll test this for two months and report back', people (Including myself) have become entrenched to the point of absurdity in defense of their opinions.

In absentia of wide-scale testing, most opinions have not been disproved, and so we simply have a furnace situation in some areas of the boards, that has perhaps carried across into more placid waters.

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blackhorizon
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:01 pm 
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Isn't only this board. I saw people leaving the BFG SG forum as well. The MMS thread also provoked some heated sayings and required some peaceful words from my side.
Port Maw can be heavy as well sometimes, especially when new players submit there new ships.

I think it is the internet to blame. Among friends in real life you can quite easily say: 'your idea stinks'  and no hostility is done. However online such a saying could be interpreted the wrong way and result in flame-ish behaviour.

Such things as these games which we all cherish and love emotions can be hard sometimes.

Maybe we should take a step back and re-read our posts before we submit? Make sure you disagree with the idea, not the person. And try to think of why you don't like it in the first place.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:17 pm 
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Sometimes I think that we are trying to do too much.

We are looking at the current rules and where people have encountered problems looking to improve areas.

We are doing the same with published (official) lists, revising and modifying.

We are trying to expand the number of armies that are available for play and eventually become official in some way themselves - AMTL, Tau, Nids, Necrons, Dark Eldar & variants such as Emperor's Children

We are showing off our painting, design and craftmanship skills (all of which still put me to shame).

We are helping new players understand some of the finer points of EA with out resorting to a stock answer of 'Do a search for this question.'

Some are also trying to put together a new suppliment.

We are trying to do all this and still have fun playing with toy soldiers.

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zombocom
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:51 pm 
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In terms of modelling, painting etc this is probably the most supportive forum out there. Some forums, warhammer.org.uk for example, have become horrendously elitist when it comes to painting.

In terms of rule disputes, it does get a little heated here, and most people are fairly entrenched in their opinions. Again, this is where clear leadership is needed, with army champions and (net)ERC members swinging in to make a call on issues. The votes we often see here are a useful tool, but in the end someone still needs to make the call.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:52 pm 
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E&C hit the big one: a lack of leadership. ?Let's face it, men crave leadership in everything that we do. ?If we don't see somebody stepping up to the plate we attempt to fill that gap. ?Not every man and not every time, but often enough where you get 2 to 20 guys with the "this will fix it" statement, resulting in clashes. ?Most of the problems will smooth out IMO when the new NetERC becomes more established. ?I am fairly confident in this because men, when faced with a leadership structure, tend to respect that structure. ?

(I know I keep saying men but let's face it- any women, small children, or owls out here? ?No? ?No? ?Okay, so nobody is offended - moving on... :p)

The next biggest thing is that this is in writing. Blackhorizon is correct that guys just talk smack, insult each other's mothers, curse, flip the bird, occasional shoving and punching, and share many more unattractive qualities with each other. ?It is what we are. ?The moment is then gone ad we move on.

But the boards are different because if somebody says something to disagree with you it is a disagreement forever. ?You come back, read it again, nope! ?Hasn't changed. ?The writing doesn't fade. ?It's like somebody repeating the same comments over and over again when in reality they typed it once as one quick thought before biting into a bagel and cream cheese on the way out the door. ?The only way it ever changes is when somebody relents, but this takes an overt part of one person to say, "Okay, I changed my mind."

We just need to be more thick skinned and soft hearted rather than thin skinned and hard hearted. ? Realize you won't always get your way. ?Understand that discussion doesn't equate to unhappiness with the rules.




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CyberShadow
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:22 pm 
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(blackhorizon @ Mar. 07 2008,12:01)
QUOTE
Isn't only this board. I saw people leaving the BFG SG forum as well. The MMS thread also provoked some heated sayings and required some peaceful words from my side.
Port Maw can be heavy as well sometimes, especially when new players submit there new ships.

This is true, and something that I had forgotten.

I have even taken obvious steps back from BFG, in part due to the nature of the BFG community at large.

I guess that I will keep an eye on this. Those who feel this way, please do contact me if this feeling persists when we have more organisation. I would very much like this place to be welcoming where-ever possible. We really do need to stick together.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:51 pm 
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On a positive note though this board is a lot more polite and welcoming than other GW boards I dont care to mention.  Even heated rules discussion is considerably nicer than similar discussions elewhere on the interwebs, and that is one reason why I keep active here.

I think that once clear leadership and communication from that leadership begins to take root here things will hopefully settle down in the rules forums; after all much of the arguing is probably indicative of wider frustrations and issues with the epic hobby and a desire to see something, anything, happen.

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blackhorizon
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:51 pm 
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Eh, CS, care to explain your stance on the BFG community and why you took steps back?

private mail accepted as well ;)

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:28 pm 
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Well, there are several reasons. Some of which I cant go into right now. Also, my BFG stuff is largely complete at this point (by that, I mean that I have enough ships for my core fleets, and any additional purchases would mean a new fleet!  :O  ).

However, the differences between the two communities (Epic and BFG) is something that has interested me since I started WR. All of this will be hugely sweeping and generic...

The BFG community seems to place more faith in official products, and only official. It seems that the two things that I dislike most are the sheer number of BFG players who put together new stats for a ship, and never build the model, and the ammount of 'bashing' that goes on, people jumping on others ideas and being excessively critical.

I still love the BFG game, but I am broadening my gaming generally. I think that I will always have time for BFG, and certainly will drag my ships out for games whenever I can.

Other projects just restrict the time that I can spend on all of the games that I like, and I need to prioritise.

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blackhorizon
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:38 pm 
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I see. And indeed lots of ships are designed without a model. It is very easy in BFG to design new ships compared to another game. So I think that's a reason. And yes, a model, will always be better.

And the bashing: I agree, sometimes it can be over the top.

Official products: mmm, 50/50 about that. There is vary much variance within bfg community about that. Eldar MMS picked up fairly good. The Book of Nemesis was viewed as a welcome addition by most.

Warp Rift still gets lots of submissions. All unofficial. So I don't see a very huge problem there.

Mainly, what I see, is the fact that when something is in a PDF it immediately gets more recognition.  That's the reason MMS stuck in there. And all Space Marine ideas seem to come, go and come again. Posting lists/stats on a forum doesn't help in the end.

But I am diverting from the issue.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:12 pm 
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I concur that the lack of leadership has been a factor. Especially for Marines, an army champ is needed to resolve disputes.

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Otterman
 Post subject: How are these boards viewed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:33 pm 
I have seen this sort of thing in other venues, and has led me to believe that hell must be eternal rules-arguing.

While a leader can be useful, it can go too far. I cite 2 examples.
Marvin Lamb of the Starfire design studio (every heard of him? didn't think so, he drove away all of his help).
Stephen V Cole of Amarillo Design Bureau. Even though his company has persisted, it shows little originality now and he has developed a reputation of a control freak.

I'm sorry that I don't have any recommendations on this issue. 'Tis a sticky wicket, that's for sure.
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