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CSM list review
BlackLegion
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:48 am 
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For the difference between Raptors and Assault Marines:

Raptors:
5-20 per unit
Boltpistol, CC-Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades
Champion available. Only he can have Melta-Bombs
0-2 Raptors can be equipped with Plasmapistol, Plasmagun, Meltagun or Flamer
Can have one Chaos Icon of one of the 4 Gods or Chaos Glory

Assault Marines (Dark Angels):
5 or 10 per unit
Boltpistol, CC-Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades
always has Vet.Sgt. Only he can have Melta-Bombs
0-2 Assault Marines can be quipped with Plasmapistols
Deepstrike (dropped from Thunderhawk)

Assault Marines (generic Marines):
5-10 per unit
Boltpistol, CC-Weapon, Frag-Grenades (Krak-Grenades and Melta-Bombs are an option)
Vet.Sgt. available
0-2 Assault Marines can be equipped with Plasmapistols or Flamers.
Deepstrike (dropped from Thunderhawk)

Assault Marines (Black Templars):
5-10 per unit
Boltpistol, CC-Weapon, Frag-Grenades (Krak-Grenades and Melta-Bombs are an option)
NO Vet.Sgt or equivalent available.
0-2 Assault Marines can be equipped with Plasmapistols or Flamers.
0-1 can be equipped with a Powerweapon or Powerfist.
All can swtich the Boltpistol for a Stormshield.
Deepstrike (dropped from Thunderhawk)

All have NO 0-x restrictions. You can have as many as the FOC allows (usual 0-3)




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Magarch
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:25 am 
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(pixelgeek @ Mar. 03 2008,22:10)
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How are people seeing Obliterators used? How many, in what factions etc? Are people maxxing out on them and putting three in a formation?

Well, my current opponent tend to put them in his max Chosen formation, usually by two or three. The price is high, but then he always uses daemons to protect that formation, making it horribly difficult to disable if you don't have the first activation (well...even if you do, in fact...but at least you can kill one or two chosen units rather than these pesky plaguereapers "I'm the perfect meat shield"). Obliterators already add a very good firepower to the formation, but again it makes it nearly invulnerable to aircraft with its six to nine AA 5+ shoots. Of course, he can Teleport the whole thing, which can be quite tricky.

Like someone said it before, they're not really expensive compared to the chosen ; the Fearless rule and their upgraded firepower (in numbers as well in range) is already a good reason to take them at +10 points higher. The triple AA 5+ at 45 cm is as good as given free.
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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:37 am 
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So its not really the Obliterators in that situation it is them but the unit they are in and your inability to knock them out due to the daemons it can summon and the teleport.

Would the situation be the same do you think in a BL Retinue?

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Steve54
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:05 am 
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Obliterators -  I generally use 3 in 3k games - 1 each in foot-slogging retinues and 1 with 4 chosen. The retinues garrison and then the other formations form two groups behind their flak. Generally in the first turn there is good flak coverage - especially if the chosen teleport is successful.
However in the second and third turns the flak coverage generally collapses - the retinues are there to do daemon-assisted assaults and will get broken or just get blastmarkers and/or the 45cm flak arcs will have sepearated.

The obliterators are good in that they are fearless, have good AA and are useful in both assaults and shooting but they generally are suppressed quite a lot as their units are ones which can't just hide in cover. Also the inclusion of oblits in units is a major trade off as you are sacrificing mobility with transports in order to get your flak

Ravager - I have had quite a bit of success with this - I haven't played with it at 3k but in larger games I prefer it to the Banelord. Used aggressively - I generally double it forward the first turn and then it is in position to use it really quite effective shooting.

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rpr
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:29 am 
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On BL lists, following strike out:
- summoning (especially greater daemons, strategy roll rule, champion/icon bearers,...)

The summoning rules have extra non-needed rules like the punish/award for high/low strategy roll. Champions and Icon Bearers are basically not worth their points, and Greater Daemons cost too much and are hard to get to play to be that usable - it is like 75 points for sufficient summoning ability and then 100 points for greater daemon and then it might come or maybe not... But in overall the meat shield rule is quite ok, although I have not used them as meat shield but extra assault  power instead. However, the loss of 1-2 activations in exchange to take daemons is always a hard choice..

- daemon prince (the power, the power)

Daemon Prince with +2 TK cc or +1 TK FF is quite tough guy, especially the RA 3+ version. And that for like +50 points? At least there should be limit like 0-1.

- free lords (why? remove that and then cost of several formation become more balanced)

While loyal Space Marines have to pay 50 points for their commanders, BL gets them for free. Even in small formations. This leads to situation that unless the number of formations (i.e. raptors) is limited, eveybody takes the smallest size formations as this both adds extra activations but also gives extra free lord. It also makes formations like Chosen insanely cheap. 260 for 4 Terminators with Commander?

- obliterators  (the power when compared to cost)

It costs +10 more than Chosen. It costs +50% more than Hydra, but has some AA power. But it also has RA 4+, can hide better etc. But yes it is slower and cannot be transported - but it can be dropped in Dreadclaws or teleported. Taking obliterators instead of more Chosen in Chosen formation is basically no-brainer. Ut would be even without AA, and thus they now offer practically free almost the best AA for 45cm. They should cost like 100 and/or have less AA power.

- lack of AA (except those unerpriced obliterators)

It would be nice to have some more normal mobile AA instead of some fearless RA 4+ underpriced stuff.


I haven't experienced Feral or Decimator at their full power but sure they look nasty[/quote]
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:16 am 
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To throw in some thoughts from the other side of the table. I have only played a couple of games as BL, but have played against plenty in pressure situations at the end of tournaments. I even played against two out of my three games at Full Scale Assault last month.

I have no problem playing against BL as it currently stands, yes Ferals are nasty, yes I am very careful where my aircraft attack, but these are the type of challenges which help make Epic the game it is.

I look forward to playing with my BL army, playtesting Emperor's Children and continuing to flood the table with my LatD.

I vote for more playtesting new lists and lets leave the existing ones alone ?:p

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:23 am 
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I have fielded Ravager quite many times. Goodish (is it a word?) in assaults (good in assault supports), not worth its points in shooting. And beside, why would I choose one 650 Ravager over 2 Feral (better movement, better shooting, twice activations). But I have one sculpted Nurgle Ravager so I have fielded it with my Nurgle themed BL. But only for style reasons, gamewise it has never shined. If I could ask for something, I would ask 60 cm range, at least for Deathstorm.

I have fielded obliterators and played against them many times. Take 2 retinue and 2 chosen minimum size, obli for each. Sky is yours (my Orkemedies Flying Cirkus (12 Fightabomma, 2 Landa) normally laughs at enemys airdefence, it cries when it sees oblis (it cant use 1-2 formation to cripple airdefence as it can against every one else, because 4+RA infantry covering in infantry cant be picked out). No way of killing airdefence before landarush and 1-2 dead FB per turn). I dont say they are overpowered, they are Just Damn Good. So good that it is just stupid not to use them, a lot. Only bad thing that oblis have is that you have to proxy them with something (or sculpt them).

What by the way makes obliteratos fluffy Air Defence Unit? They have same weapons as Devastators can have. Give Chaos either Traitor Hydra or Chaos Hunter.



Given how badly received the new CSM list is I don't know how much we want to follow it


I hated that book because it was only about fresh-renegades and BL and it did not give Original Traitors glory and attention they deserved (!) (and it made them blah-blah uncharacterfull). But you could actually say it "Codex: Black Legion" so about BL it is great thing to follow, after all it is about just them.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:31 am 
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Daemon Prince with +2 TK cc or +1 TK FF is quite tough guy, especially the RA 3+ version. And that for like +50 points? At least there should be limit like 0-1.


Please price him correctly instead of inserting an 0-1 limit to patch over an overpowered unit.


I hated that book because it was only about fresh-renegades and BL and it did not give Original Traitors glory and attention they deserved (!) (and it made them blah-blah uncharacterfull). But you could actually say it "Codex: Black Legion" so about BL it is great thing to follow, after all it is about just them.

Well said... the new Chaos Codex annoyed a lot of chaos legion players, because their lists were essentially removed, but as far as the Black Legion goes, it is very accurate.

Note that the legion armies were removed so that they can get their own seperate army lists in the fullness of time.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:37 am 
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I guess that only the Cult Legions will get their own Codices...

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:39 am 
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I'd expect the 'big four' to see their own lists at the least:

- World Eaters (Khorne)
- Thousand Sons (Tzeentch)
- Emperor's Children (Slanesh)
- Death Guard (Nurgle)

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:41 am 
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I only see separate Codices for Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion IF they will do Codices for all the First Founding Chapters too.
And this is not very likely.




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Magarch
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:32 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Mar. 04 2008,04:37)
QUOTE
So its not really the Obliterators in that situation it is them but the unit they are in and your inability to knock them out due to the daemons it can summon and the teleport.

Would the situation be the same do you think in a BL Retinue?

Well, Obliterators are a part of the strength of this formation in particular, but indeed that's not the only reason. Daemons, cheap Chosen because of their free lord, the fact they can have nine infantry units with 4+ Reinforced Armour, all of that count.

With a BL Retinue, I can't really say...Though one time my opponent  used a formation of this one with fiften units inside, including three Obliterators, four havocs and eight chaos space marines. Still pricey, yet quite resilient with these damned meat shields...That kind of formation is nearly unmovable in defense. Moreover, in this kind of formation, Obliterators aren't easily suppressed... But that time, I played a list of dark eldars, AT heavy and quite frail with no artillery, so it was quite the nemesis of my army (simply put, I could litteraly do nothing against this, since they were all the time in Overwatch and far too many to assault). That's why I can't really say if it is overpowered or not because of that special situation.

I guess I'm unlucky my opponent is a fan of Obliterators.  :D
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nealhunt
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:06 pm 
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As a general note on keeping all of this civil...

It doesn't help to make hyperbolic statements.  It gets people emotional and causes hard feelings.  There's no need to be inflammatory.

The list has been official for almost a year and was out and used in tournaments in its current form for a year and a half before that.  It has been played a lot and it hasn't been ridiculous in its performance in tournaments.  It's not crushing all before it.  From the batreps and tournament rankings that I can recall, the BL list has not even done as well as the Swordwind Eldar list.

Clearly, nothing in it is "insane."  Nothing in it is a "disaster."  Using that kind of accusatory language is just going to induce defensive posturing and shut down meaningful discussion.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:12 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 04 2008,02:31)
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Well said... the new Chaos Codex annoyed a lot of chaos legion players, because their lists were essentially removed, but as far as the Black Legion goes, it is very accurate.

How so? Its focused on Renegades is it not?

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:18 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Mar. 04 2008,02:37)
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I guess that only the Cult Legions will get their own Codices...

Can we keep the discussion on topic please?

Thanks

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