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The Demolisher Debate

Soren

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:31 pm

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I don?t think that 2 Razorback are equal zu 1 Vindi. Vindis are slower, die after 1 hit and are only 1 instead of 2. Razors have 2 shots, vindi has one. I really think they should not cost more than 50 as an upgrade. You are limited to 1 or 2 per formation anyway. Not that much chance to powergame them.

(always compared to 2 Razors)
Vindi Pos list:
ignore cover
meat shield
better save

Vindi neg list:
25 cm but speed is essential to the list composition
only 1 tank when counting on unit numbers
only 1 shot instead of 2
short range

50 is OK, more is not really justifiable.

My 0,002 cent

Soren

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nealhunt

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:57 pm

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I don?t think that 2 Razorback are equal zu 1 Vindi. Vindis are slower, die after 1 hit and are only 1 instead of 2.

You're not counting better armor for the Vindi or the fact that Razorbacks replace Rhinos. If you're trying to compare equal points, it's 2 Razorbacks versus Vindi + Rhino.

2 Razorbacks add one unit. Vindi/Rhino adds one as well.
3 hits to kill 2 Razorbacks. 3.5 to kill Vindi and Rhino.
Vindi + Rhino is better in assault and has marginally better ranged fire.
The Vindi provides a nice option for a FF-based SM character (3+FF Librarian).

Close, but it goes to the Vindi. Of course, Razorbacks can do the odd-number, keep-a-Rhino manipulation so a straight point based comparison doesn't give them their full due. I think that makes them roughly equally good upgrades at 50 points per Vindi.

That might be okay for a formation upgrade, depending on how you feel about what the SMs should have available.

I think it calls into question a flat 50-point cost and a formation of 4/200.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:03 pm

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At the least it's worth considering, whilst 275pts for 4 is just silly, MW or no.

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Crabowl

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:29 am

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(nealhunt @ Feb. 25 2008,21:57)

QUOTE

I don?t think that 2 Razorback are equal zu 1 Vindi. Vindis are slower, die after 1 hit and are only 1 instead of 2.

You're not counting better armor for the Vindi or the fact that Razorbacks replace Rhinos. ?If you're trying to compare equal points, it's 2 Razorbacks versus Vindi + Rhino.

I think you forgot the 15cm extra range that allows razors to occasionally sustain and advance.

Some reasons why I wouldn't still take them: Vindis can't double without slowing the formation by 5'ish cms and causing them to spread. Razors are almost always taken in ones to provide that extra space (and to provide scouts with 45cm blast marker ability). If I compare one razor to a half vindi it kinda loses even with lower cost. They might work as a formation of their own but 4 vindis is still not exactly the most fearsome formation out there. Give them 30cm speed in addition to dropping the cost and then sure, maybe..

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:15 am

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200pts or 225pts would give you 4 vindicators.

Even with Walker, most people would still tell you that bikes (200pts) or Land Speeders (200pts) are a better buy.

The Vindicator is currently severely overpriced, and that's its only problem.

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Nicodemus

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:47 am

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I would vote for 50 points per vindie.

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nealhunt

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:45 pm

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I think you forgot the 15cm extra range that allows razors to occasionally sustain and advance.

Only lascannon Razorbacks have 45cm range, so it's only relevant against AT targets. With a -1 to the Vindicators based on orders, the Razorbacks barely have more firepower and even with the slower Vindi speed a difference in orders won't apply most of the time.

===

Even with Walker, most people would still tell you that bikes (200pts) or Land Speeders (200pts) are a better buy.

I'd take Vindicators at 200 any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Better firepower even with Speeders' MW and better FF/support. AV status and Walker (-1 to be hit in terrain) add durability to mitigate the lower number of units. The only downsides are slightly lower speed and a vulnerability to CC.

They are too expensive for what you get but I think a 1/3 cut in price and a boost to stats is a bit of an overreaction.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:59 pm

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better FF/support.

Vindicators have the same FF (4+) as bikers.... in addition I reckon that a 5+ FF with MW is better than a straight 4+ FF, unless you're facing enemies with no armour.

At range, they can put out a measily 4 shots (An average of 1.33 hits, IIRC, when on an Advance order, which doesn't happen often as they're durned slow...).

Only lascannon Razorbacks have 45cm range

Careful, or I'll start campaigning for HB Razorbacks to be 15pts.

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nealhunt

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:42 pm

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My bad. I was thinking Vindicators were FF 3+.

I reckon that a 5+ FF with MW is better than a straight 4+ FF, unless you're facing enemies with no armour.

I know it's commonly believed that MW = 2x normal, but it just isn't true. 5+MW is better against 4+ saves. Against 5+ saves they are the same. Against 6+ or no save, the 4+ is better. Assaults tend to be against targets of opportunity, so the chances of maximizing MW effectiveness by choosing high-armor targets for FF isn't all that great.

At range, they can put out a measily 4 shots (An average of 1.33 hits, IIRC, when on an Advance order, which doesn't happen often as they're durned slow...).
Actually, they get almost twice that. AP3/AT4. That's 2.67AP/2AT hits. 2/1.33 on Double.

Speeders get 1.66 MW hits without any mods, .83 with -1 (cover or double) and .42 with -2, which Vindis never face. That means they are even when both have 0 mod, worse at other like values, and likely to face a greater negative modifier. They are better with Sustain against a target in the open, but how often does that happen?

I fail to see how 25cm move and 30cm range (55cm advance, 80cm double) is inferior to 30cm move and 15cm range (45cm advance, 75cm double) with respect to being able to maximize fire orders.

Even revising the FF/support analysis, I'd still take the Vindis over Bikes or Speeders at equal points.

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Crabowl

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:03 pm

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(nealhunt @ Feb. 26 2008,14:45)

QUOTE

Only lascannon Razorbacks have 45cm range..

Are there any other kind? ?

But seriously, Vindicator can't even counter-charge 10cm to bring its gun within range when a tac/dev formation is clipped and it's main strength lies in AP that it can use when it doubles. Something must be horribly wrong with the opponent if a vindi can get to shoot AT targets without doubling. As a formation they can possibly do little better but it's still 2 hits against AP or 1.33 against AT in most cases.

As for speeders, they can move 70cms, cause a blast, and with luck one kill and then support a thunderhawk assault and/or harass an artillery formation with scout. Vindis can go 50 and do the blasts but it's harder to get to support range. Marines lack all the 120cm+ barrage toys that can be forced to bring the enemy to them and all they have is mobility and ATSKNF popcorn.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:12 pm

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the chances of maximizing MW effectiveness by choosing high-armor targets for FF isn't all that great.

In my experience, Land Speeders are invariably used as supporting fire platforms, using their high speed and skimmer ability to get into position, something Vindicators can't manage as well with only 2/3rds the speed.

With that in mind, I find Land Speeders bringing their MW guns to the point where they're needed to be relatively commonplace .

As Marines are an Assault-orientated army, the faster Land Speeders are simply worth more to a Marine army than the slower Vindicators (And that's not even taking into account the scout ability on the 'speeders which let them be in position to support a firefight on turn 1 if nessesary...).

I fail to see how 25cm move and 30cm range...

Vindicators have a 20cm move.

I admit to mis-remembering the to-hit stats on the Vindi's.

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nealhunt

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:42 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Vindicators have a 20cm move.

Well, perhaps if we were talking about the same stats, it would make a difference. You were talking about the Walker improvement, which I don't think I've ever seen proposed without 25cm move.

What, exactly, is it you think is a 50 point, 4/200 Vindicator?

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Demolisher Debate

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:56 pm

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What, exactly, is it you think is a 50 point, 4/200 Vindicator?

A rulebook Vindicator with no ajustments other than a points nudge.

I went into more detail in the 'Vindicators' thread I started at the same time as this, but the gist of it was 'instead of nudging the Vindicator's stats in three or four different places, how abouts we just drop its points cost and see if it finds its balance that way?'...

Just a new idea that has been dragged into this thread too.

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