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Red Corsairs (or generic Chaos Space Marines)
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:56 am 
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Apparently rpr agrees with me.


- why are chaos titans more expensive? Warhound 300 etc.


They have 'inspiring' to represent their Daemonic Aura (Which is worth 25pts at least). Personally I'd start by bumping the Titans up by only 25pts each for this gift... so you'd get 300pts***, 675pts & 875pts, but 50pts isn't prohibitively expensive.

Remember that the Chaos Feral Titan is quite underpriced at 300pts (It's worth more like 350-375 IMHO).


*** = Using a base cost of 275 for a Warhound

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rpr
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:35 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 25 2008,11:56)
QUOTE
They have 'inspiring' to represent their Daemonic Aura (Which is worth 25pts at least). Personally I'd start by bumping the Titans up by only 25pts each for this gift... so you'd get 300pts***, 675pts & 875pts, but 50pts isn't prohibitively expensive.

Ah missed that, my bad, then they are okay I guess

(although demiurgs i.e. squats pay more for that, but I think their infantry is overpriced...)

Hm I wonder which I agree =]
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:46 pm 
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I have startet with +50pts for the Chaos Titans on purpose. Playtest wil ltell if it is to expensive.

And for now the Brass Scorpion willstay at this price. I would recommend try it out in the first game to see if it is really overpriced. At last it should be pretty brutal at close range.

Your armylist structure is very similar to what is floating in my head after E&Cs comments :)

And i guess you misread the "subtitel". The armylist is V2.0 but the first headeris labeled RC1.0 and the second header (the fluff part) is labeled RC1.1 which might confuse you :)

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Tooninki
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:27 pm 
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Yeah, i misread the subtitle... :p
Have you tought about chaos dreads? I would like use them but they seem to be in minority/rarely used slot...
Allow Lucius class Warhounds (has there been closure on Inferno gun stats?)
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:36 pm 
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So. Version 3.0 is uploaded.

-  split formations in Core and Support Formations.
- added Cult Marines to Support formations (but left Cult Marine upgrade available for the Retinue)
- clarified RC1.1.4 that only Lesser Daemons are added to the Daemon Pool.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:41 pm 
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Oops. Moved Strike Cruiser and Thunderhawk to the Support Formations or else you would be able to field a force of only Thunderhawks filled with Cult Marines :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:43 pm 
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Comments:

I would change the 'designer's note' from 'strongly recommended' to 'Many players will wish to'.


I also quite like the name 'forlon hope' for the formation of four CSM... 'chosen' is certainly a contraversial choice.


Overall?

At least in concept, this list appears to be much better than the Black Legion list, for a number of reasons.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:53 pm 
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And i like Chosen. Some way because of the controversial naming and because the CSM Veterans have Infiltrate in Wh40k.
As alternative i could name the formation  Forlorn Hope and the unit type Chosen Chaos Space Marines which would be identical to generic Chaos Space Marines but with Scout and CC3+.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:01 pm 
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From the top:

Factions:  Personally, I like the factions, even if the basic 40K CSM Codex doesn't really have them any more.

Termies:  I don't object to the point structure, but you've increased the cost of the formation substantially as compared to the BL list.  I don't think they are overpowered in the BL list.  Why the ~10% point bump?

Assault Company:  I don't think either the Plaguereaper or the Brass Scorpion is worth 250 points.  Similarly, I definitely wouldn't take a formation of Baneblades, since you're charging a 20% premium over what they cost in the IG list.  Singles only.

Chaos Thawk:  I think you're going to be asking for abuse with this.  8 Bikes, for example, would be a cheap load and a wicked assault, as would a Retinue w/ Cult marines.

Raptors:  I wouldn't take these at this price.  They may be too cheap in the BL list, but their pricing is insane in this list.  8 raptors would cost 410 points, compared to 8 bikes for 300.  They are a little bit better, not +35%.  The bikes are a core formation (giving a support slot instead of using one) and have more upgrade options.  Even 200 points + 40 per extra unit would make them 20% more expensive than Bikes.  200+35 would be better (~+15%).

Daemons:  Noticeably weaker than the faction-specific versions.  The daemons and summoning rules in the BL and L&D list are borderline in effectiveness, with some people arguing they are too weak.  They definitely don't need a substantial downgrade.

Titans:  I don't think Inspiring is worth +50 points on titans.  They don't assault very often and assaulting a titan is far less efficient at taking it out of action than just breaking it with BMs.  Even if an opponent assaults a titan, it's usually an attempt to kill it outright using MWCC.

==

While I agree this addresses some of the common complaints about the BL list, I think that you've gone from having a handful of "no brainer" formations to a handful of "no way" formations.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:14 pm 
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Chaos Thawk


Bump the points cost to 250.


Titans:  I don't think Inspiring is worth +50 points on titans.

I agree here (As I said on the first post of page 4 in fact).

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:25 pm 
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re Factions: In Wh40k you can mix and match faction specific squads in the army. So at an overall glance the army would be undivded.
Say the Chaos Lord would whorship Khorne but none of his retinue would. There are two squads which worship Nurgle and one squad which worships Tzentch, the rest is Chaos Undivided.
So at it's whole the formation is Chaos Undivided.

re Termies: In BL 4 Terminators are 260pts inclusive Chaos Lord in RC they are 250pts plus 50pts for the Chaos Lord. Or should 4 Terminators cost 200pts + 50pts  for the Chaos Lord = 250pts instead?

re Assault Company: well in RC you can boost them with Defilers and/or Vindicators. Of the points costs of Plaguereaper and Brass Scorpion we would see in playtest. They are new units and intentionally put on a high points cost.

re Thunderhawk: I could move the Bikes to the Support Formations. And regardless of via Thunderhawk or Droppods an airassault is allways brutal if executed right :) But increasing the points cost to 250 or even 275pts could help against this no-brainer?

re Raptors: Hmm yes. They should be 200pts +40pts for extra Raptors.

re Daemons: i was thinking about a points drop to 10/75 for Lesser/Greater Daemons.

re Titans. if +50pts proofs to be to much it will go down to +25pts.




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Tooninki
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:33 pm 
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Its deliperate that cult marines dont have acces to Dreadnoughs?!
Why not try bumping C hawks price to 225pts, for start!
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:55 pm 
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Soo. I have thought a bit more of this and made some changes:

- Terminators now cost 250pts + 60pts for extra Terminators
- Chaos Baneblades now cost 175pts each, Plagereaper/Brass Scorpion niw cost 200pts each
- Raptors cost 200pts + 40 pts for extra Raptors
- the Brass Scorpions Hellmaw Cannon now confers the Ignore Cover ability to the units firefight value.
- Lesser Daemons now cost 15pts and Greater Daemons now cost 75pts.
- Chaos Thunderhawk now costs 250pts.
- Chaos Warlord now costs 875pts and chaos raver 675pts.

Version 3.1 is now upladed.

Better?




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Tooninki
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:09 pm 
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No change in Warhound price!?
Please, replace Vindicator upgrade with chaos Dreadnough for cult marines! (support formation)
Cults usually use Dreads but not Vindis!
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:16 pm 
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Yes because single Warhound is proposed to be 275pts instead of 250pts...at least for the Space Marines.

And for the Vindicators: Damn i knew i forgot something...

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