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Red Corsairs (or generic Chaos Space Marines)
BlackLegion	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:48 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am Posts: 8711 Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe	So any ctritics on the new list itself? Would you play with it or against it? Does it fit the design concept? _________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
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Evil and Chaos	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:57 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am Posts: 20887 Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire	In concept I prefer it to the existing Black Legion army list because: - I prefer the use of standard configuration Chaos Titans. - I prefer this list because it matches 40k's wider background more closely than the BL list (Which has many units and descriptions that are never seen anywhere else in the entire diaspora of GW's creations, whilst it also lacks many of the iconic Chaos units that you would expect to see) - The loss of different daemon types doesn't bother me one way or the other (If this list had all five daemon types, I would still find it superior in concept to the Black Legion list). However this list also inherits the biggest failing of the structure of the Black Legion list, that being the proliferation of non-scaling 0-1 / 0-2 limits. I'm not so fussed about the ability to make a WE-heavy army with this list as it lacks the more powerful Black Legion Super-Heavies, but I'd still prefer to see the 'core' SHT's moved to the 'allies' allowance along with the Titans, so that Red Corsair armies will be Chaos Marines, plus their allies, rather than allowing a list that is the other way around. _________________ Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
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BlackLegion	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:09 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am Posts: 8711 Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe	It's a turney list. I could write: 0-2 Chaos Terminators, 0-1 Daemon Prince, etc for every 5000pts of army value or so because Turney lists are supposed to be within 2000-5000pts strong. The game effect would be the same. _________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
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Evil and Chaos	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:16 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am Posts: 20887 Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire	The game effect would be the same. It's blatantly not the same. At 2000pts you can pack 80% of your points into those rare, overly-powerful units. At 5000pts, you can only have 40% of your list composed of the cool toys. An army list should strive to include as few 0-x limits as possible, because each one is a blatant admission that the units held within are overpowered, and the list writer couldn't find a way to make them balanced (Points / Stats / list structure / whatever). 0-1 Daemon Prince, that could probably be justified on fluff grounds (Though IIRC can't you have two Daemon Princes in a single game of 40k?), the rest of them are just papering over cracks. _________________ Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
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BlackLegion	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:29 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am Posts: 8711 Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe	Sorry i meant the to proposal i made are essentially the same. How about this? Armoured Company (0-2 per two Retinues or fractions thereof) Terminator Retinue (0-2 per two Retinues or fractions thereof) So with 0-1 Retinue you could field 0-2 Armoured Companies and 0-2 Terminator Retinue. You would need a 3rd Retinue to field a 3rd /and/or 4th Armoured Company and/or Terminator Retinue _________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
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Evil and Chaos	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:32 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am Posts: 20887 Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire	I'd see nothing wrong with having a direct 1:1 relationship. IE: 1 Retinue would entitle you to purchase 1 Armoured Company or 1 Terminator formation, but not both. 'Kinda like the IG list's 'support formations', only if they were made '0-1 per company' instead of '0-2 per company'. That would enable you to make, for example, a 'raptor themed' army list, at the expense of you not having any Terminators... _________________ Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
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BlackLegion	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:41 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am Posts: 8711 Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe	You have seen that Raptors, Obliterator and Cult Marines upgrades are now in the 1/3 restriction like Titans and Aerospace units? I could put the Armoured Company there too. In E40k the Chaos armies where light on heavy vehicles formations. _________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
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Evil and Chaos	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:48 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am Posts: 20887 Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire	You have seen that Raptors, Obliterator and Cult Marines upgrades are now in the 1/3 restriction like Titans and Aerospace units? No I didn't see that I must have been looking at an older version. I could put the Armoured Company there too. That would be my first choice, with the Raptors, Obliterators, Cult Marines etc limited by being tied to the number of Retinue formations in some manner, to represent that the majority of Chaos / Red Corsair units are Undivided in nature. Otherwise, the Allies allowance is going to get rather crowded. _________________ Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
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BlackLegion	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:08 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am Posts: 8711 Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe	Last paragraph bevore the box it is mentioned The 0-1 formation/upgrade per Retinue soundintriguing but is complicated to spell it out. And on the other hand i don't want the structure of the army list to be to different from the Black Legion army list. After all its a Chaos Space Marine army but a bit more closer to being Space Marines than totally dedicated Chaos worshippers which have lost all their original organisation. And it is not so that the majority of Red Corsairs formations are undivided. There are individuel troops which can be dedicated to a particular chaos god (they bear the apropiate Icon) but the formation as a whole is undivided because of the mix of different factions found in it. I was already thinking about allowing a mix of different Cult Marines instead of being restircted to one type per formation. Yes i could invent rules for one-faction formations (3+ armour for Nurgle, Invulnerable Save f?r Tzeentch, +1 CC for Khorne and +1 CCEA for Slaanesh) but this would make them very similar to Cult Marines hwat i want to avoid. It is already hard enough to make them not Space Marines but evil and better at anything _________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
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Evil and Chaos	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:16 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am Posts: 20887 Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire	i don't want the structure of the army list to be too different from the Black Legion army list. In my not so humble opinion, the biggest failing of the Black Legion list is its structure, followed closely by a few 'problem' unit types. _________________ Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
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BlackLegion	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:32 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am Posts: 8711 Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe	Hehe i know But it is the official list. Becaue of this it doesn't matter that it is flawed. It would be a similar strange thing if i would develope a Space Marine army list and would use the ork army list structure. In my opinion the official list structure has to change to have any effect on sub-lists. _________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
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Tooninki	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:22 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:19 pm Posts: 180 Location: Nokia Finland	List still shows version 1.1 instead 2.0
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Evil and Chaos	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:07 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am Posts: 20887 Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire	In my opinion the official list structure has to change to have any effect on sub-lists. The official list's structure is its biggest problem... and unless someone proposes and playtests a different structure, we'll be stuck with an inferior solution. _________________ Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
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BlackLegion	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:53 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am Posts: 8711 Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe	(Tooninki @ Feb. 24 2008,20:22) QUOTE List still shows version 1.1 instead 2.0 Huh? Not to me. I uploaded 2.0 again. Display still says it's 2.0. Does it work now? @Evil&Chaos: Well..i'm not the ArmyChampion of the BlackLegion despite my nickname _________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
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rpr	Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines) Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:46 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm Posts: 516	I just downloaded 2.0 (the subtitle is 1.1, that miught confuse...) and I could try that out when I play next time.. I do not know about the new chaos itself so cannot comment some parts of it, but thunderhawks for chaos and 1+ spaceships for drop army... interesting, let's see whast happens.. Some questions/comments: - brass scorpion seems quite pricey as it is quite fragile - wonder if anyone is going to take this - why are chaos titans more expensive? Warhound 300 etc. - could we get rid of that Daemon Pool/strategy roll thing? :] One extra rule which is always forgotten, plus it actually do not state that it is lesser daemon.. That 1/3 rule for raptors, Obliterators etc. is very hard to handle... I would go for something like this: Core formations: Retinue Armoured Company Terminators    (I do not these actually need limit with fixed cost) Support formations (one can be taken for each core formation) Chosen Raptors   (maybe as core choice) Assault Company Thunderhawk 0-1 Spaceship Auxialary (up to 1/3 can be spent on these) Titans Chaos Navy Ok this would allow different composition of army, but would be much simplier. This is just original idea, formations could be moved around...
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