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[Lictors] What to do with them.
ragnarok
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:57 pm 
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I have been thinking about Lictors alot over the past few days.  This is because I was going to squeeze some into my list for tomorrows battle, but I just don't think they are portayed that well.

I know that 40K isn't soeting to go by too closely.  but in that game system they are simply more expensive genestealers.  They are a similar number of attacks, same strength and toughness, worst armour and are slower (though they can hide really well).

I therefore don't think they deserve CC3+ or a MW attack.  their assault stat line should be the same as stealers.

So what do they do that stealers can't?

They scare the crap out of the enemy, coordinate assaults (my leaving pheramone trails) and hunt down enemy commanders.

So one or more of the following could be appropriate:

Inspiring
Commander
sniper.

Another thing to concider, is that they are surpose to be stealthed, but can be blasted from a kilometer away.   Though this is more suited for a general discussion, since it could be a special rule that other armies could use (ie stealth suits and remoras)

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:14 pm 
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(ragnarok @ Feb. 15 2008,14:57)
QUOTE
Inspiring
Commander
sniper.

The more things change, the more they stay the same!

Way back when, when I was a mere Ripper instead of the Hive Tyrant you now see, I really pushed for Lictors to have commander, but was scrabbled down by many other Rippers... it's humourous to me to see it come up again.

I agree that it could be an interesting approach to them and that they aren't 'quite right' at the moment.

However, their "stealth" is represented by their ability to teleport, and appear "as if from no where".

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:16 pm 
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They are a similar number of attacks, same strength and toughness, worst armour and are slower (though they can hide really well).


You'd be wrong to say that.


Genestealers are S4.
Lictors are S6.

Genestealers have 1 wound.
Lictors have 2 wounds.

Both creatures have a 5+ armour save.

Lictors also have +2 to any cover save that might be available.

Lictors have 3 basic attacks, Genestealers have 2.


So what do they do that stealers can't?

They teleport onto the board (In 40k they must teleport into a terrain feature) and then charge a nearby unit, disrupting the enemy whilst the main horde approaches...

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:27 pm 
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Also remember that when Lictors teleport in they can do so in such a way that their zone of control overlaps an enemy unit (scouts see). Useful for example for preventing artillery formations from sustain firing!

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ragnarok
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:32 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 15 2008,15:16)
QUOTE
You'd be wrong to say that.


Genestealers are S4.
Lictors are S6.

Really! ?I thought they were S4. ?I better go and check that, they might not be as pants as I remember them

Genestealers have 1 wound.
Lictors have 2 wounds.

However you can get several stealers for the same price as a single Lictor, so the wounds balance.

Both creatures have a 5+ armour save.

Lictors also have +2 to any cover save that might be available.

Alas their extra cover save isn't available in epic, which is why I want to add a generic stealth rule.

Lictors have 3 basic attacks, Genestealers have 2.

Again Stealers get weight of numbers so more attacks overall


So what do they do that stealers can't?

They teleport onto the board (In 40k they must teleport into a terrain feature) and then charge a nearby unit, disrupting the enemy whilst the main horde approaches...

I have yet to see a single Lictor be able to do anything when they charge in. ?the best they can do is make the enemy avoid terrain, and even then they don't worry too much about it.

If you look at an epic stand of 3 Lictors (okay you could have 5 lictors on a stand but who would?) against a stand of 5 naked stealers.  the lictirs get 1 more wound, 2 extra ponts of strength and 1 (3 on the charge) less attack.

If the stealers have tox sacs then the lictors only have 1 point of strength more
If they have scything talons then they have 6 (8 on the charge) fewer attacks

Given extended carapace the stealers can survive bolter rounds, which chewe up lictors
Implant attacks and the stealers are character hunters.

The epic stand will represent a whole host of different stealer strains, and all of them are much more useful than Lictors, heck Lictors need synapse to work properly!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:53 pm 
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If you look at an epic stand of 3 Lictors (okay you could have 5 lictors on a stand but who would?) against a stand of 5 naked stealers.  the lictirs get 1 more wound, 2 extra ponts of strength and 1 (3 on the charge) less attack.


a - You should be assuming a 1:1 ratio; they're both 'infantry' no matter the size of the model.

b - You should almost never assume unit upgrades as standard in Epic unless they're absolutely prevailent (Like a heavy weapon being in a space marine tactical squad).


Essentially, you should be looking at the lictor unit supplying the killing power of ~5 Lictors, not ~3.

Abstraction's a killer. :)

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ragnarok
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:40 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 15 2008,15:53)
QUOTE
a - You should be assuming a 1:1 ratio; they're both 'infantry' no matter the size of the model.

b - You should almost never assume unit upgrades as standard in Epic unless they're absolutely prevailent (Like a heavy weapon being in a space marine tactical squad).


Essentially, you should be looking at the lictor unit supplying the killing power of ~5 Lictors, not ~3.

Abstraction's a killer. :)

Well I assume a fluid unit size dependant on the unit in questions.  With something like Lictors that are loners, or act in loose groups then about three per stand is justifable.  For standard units about 5 and really crap units (ie any gaunt) then the stats represent 7 of the blighters.

With 'stealers, I find that extended carapace, scything talons and tox sacs are all pretty standard upgrades, in different combinations.

Now for a really off the wall idea.

Since Lictors are the scouts of swarms, should they become uncommonbrood creatures, and be tied to the swarm they are leading?

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Soren
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:47 am 
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Lictors guide the swarm over several dozen kilometers to their prey. I don?t think tieing them to a specific swarm would make sense as we speak about really huge distances even for epic scale.

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Dave
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:42 pm 
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And per the fluff, lictors attract other swarms through pheromones. I believe it was in Warriors of Ultramar that this was shown.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:53 am 
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Here's my last post on Lictors, major point, they shouldn't be a first striking carnifex!

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....y224327

And as has been pointed out before when you run the maths they are far more like genestealers than carnis in 40k, and in fact I used to use 3 Lictors when I played 40k and repeatedly saw them fail to live up to other expectations of them. They can snipe the occasional lighter vehicle with hit and run, but anything serious and they are dead.

I suggested that they either lose the MW or  an attack, and get a boost to their armour.

Ideally armour should be boosted when being shot at but not in close combat, but that would require a special rule. Not necessarily out of the question given that other armies often have 1 or two unit specific rules (eg grots for orks), but best to avoid where possible.

From playtesting I have found 5+ RA and Invulnerable Save bit of a pain to roll for, but it seems to give the right sort of protection at range (though too much in cc).

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ragnarok
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:55 pm 
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I am going to try them on Monday with 2 attacks at 3+ with sniper, to see if that gives them the right feel.  Though it is against AMTL, so they wont be character huting that much   :laugh: .

For a unit special rule, what about

Chameleon
The unit always counts as being in cover with a 5+ cover save.  Unless the unit engages or is in terrain that has a better save.

This rule could also apply to stealth suits.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:02 pm 
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(ragnarok @ Feb. 17 2008,10:55)
QUOTE
I am going to try them on Monday with 2 attacks at 3+ with sniper, to see if that gives them the right feel.  Though it is against AMTL, so they wont be character huting that much   :laugh: .

For a unit special rule, what about

Chameleon
The unit always counts as being in cover with a 5+ cover save.  Unless the unit engages or is in terrain that has a better save.

This rule could also apply to stealth suits.

With infiltrate, sniper is redundant.  Just move up to the target you want to kill. If there is not space then fair enough that you can't get close enough to kill it.

Also sniper is really supposed to be a shooting ability not a an assault ability.

Chameleon or something like that might be worthwhile to introduce, I'm not sure.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:22 pm 
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Sniper on a CC weapon is not allowed to spread beyond base-to-base contact.

So if you have two attacks from a Lictor, you could only apply them on units that are in base to base with the lictor, but both hits could go on a single enemy unit.

Additionally, that enemy unit then has -1 to his armour save.



I think Sniper works well for lictors...

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ragnarok
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:37 am 
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I tried sniper Lictors Yesterday against fluffy and the AMTL.

Turns out that for sniper to work I have to hit more than 3 times out of 10 attacks :(

Hopefully I will be able to test them against tech guard tomorrow.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: [Lictors] What to do with them.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:57 am 
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Here's a bit of a brainstorm...

How about a more abstract idea for Lictors...?

You buy them individually and they must be spawned into a formation in an end phase to bring them on the table.

They basically give a BM to the enemy when their formation engages.

The enemy know there's a Lictor about and become a little "suppressed" by fear and confusion as to it's whereabouts etc while the Lictor's presence grants the Nids a bonus to assault due to the ensuing confusion.

Once the engagement is over they are removed for a later turn - not counting as casualties. They die only if the formation is wiped out.

This sort of represents them fading into the scenery after guiding their Nid friends to a fight.

OK, it's another special rule but I thought I'd throw this out there.
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