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Howling Banshees
Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:45 pm 
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(Magarch @ Feb. 14 2008,13:32)
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Well, at the FERC (ERC for french speaking people, for people who don't know us), the Banshees have been modified to this ;

CC 4+
Weapons
Banshee Mask (close, assault weapons, First Strike)
Power weapon (close, assault weapon, Macro Weapon)

This make a close assault unit with two attacks, one with First Strike and the other with Macro-Weapon. CC 4+ was thought better suited to them with that modification.

For the 40k matter, I think that we should keep an eye on this game for inspiration but we shouldn't forget that the two game systems are completely different in mind. Trying to take too many details in account is a mistake, I think. So I support Hena in his point of view.

Very interesting!

Presuming the speed and FF values are unchanged, this will tend to make them very good against armour and moderate Titan killers, while not being as good as Scorpions against hordes of unarmoured enemy. This is certainly a significant difference from other Aspects. What was your reasoning here??

Also, did you consider reducing the FF to 6+ to offset the increased power from MW?


Edit - I see you and Chroma have answered this in part. Must learn to type faster :D




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Magarch
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:13 pm 
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What was your reasoning here??


I can't really say, I didn't follow the debate (didn't join the FERC at the time) so I just arrived when the changes were already made. I think it was just to keep the equipment close to their 40k sisters.


Also, did you consider reducing the FF to 6+ to offset the increased power from MW?


No, the others stats were left unchanged. I think there was no reason to change the FF since banshees have quite the same firepower than Scorpions (same shuriken pistols, after all). The macro weapon + first strike rules are powerfull, but compensate for the armor of 5+ which is still a great disadvantage compared to the Scorpions.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:25 pm 
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As far as I am aware, the discussion here has been separate from the French boards - so when did the French ERC decide upon the change?

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:11 pm 
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Thanks Hena. Had a quick skim at these sites, and it seems this modification came in around April last year, in a modified form of Sotec's Eldar 1.8 proposals. (they have a couple of other mods as well)

Judging from the way it has been presented there and by Magarch here, I believe that they just treat the unit as having two separate attacks, one with First Strike, and the other with MW (exactly as I proposed). The only difference being that they have not explicitly defined the Extra Attack as such to emphasise the separate attacks.

Interestingly, the background reasoning behind their change matches those we have been trying to use as well;
- that they do not get played often compared with Scorpions;
- to make them better CC specialists in line with the 40K background in which they are armed with a powersword;
- to regain their place as specialists in the destruction of heavy-armoured infantry

The last point is interesting because Magarch recognises that the combination of a FS attack and a MW attack makes them a bit better against armour (rather than infantry per se), but their weak defensive armour is still a great disadvantage when compared with Scorpions. The implication here being that they can be used against RA targets, but will suffer significant losses in doing so, which becomes a deterrent against using them as WE or Titan killers




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Magarch
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:49 pm 
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Damn ! My very bad, it was me who interpreted the profile in the wrong way. It is exactly like Hena said ; one attack with both First Strike and Macro Weapon.

Gonna tell this to my friends at the club (we just use the army lists of the FERC, so our interpretation wasn't their).
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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:13 pm 
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Having two attacks, one FS and one MW is very, very powerful. I could post relative powers with scorpions, but I don't really see it worth my while right now. While it has the advantage that you can use the normal power weapons profile, it is MUCH more powerful than scorpions - making Banshees better against all types of targets.

Now, CC4+, that makes more sense with a single First Strike Macro Weapon attack. If that was the intended profile, that would be a perfectly workable solution. While it unfortunately doesn't use the normal power weapons profile, but that's okay.

I don't think two weapons would be a good idea, it's obviously confusing (since we are confused!), ?something like this would work better:
Banshee mask & power swords - Assault Weapons - (Base Contact) - Macro Weapon, First Strike.

You'd need to put something like "Note that the Banshee mask & power swords do not provide an extra attack, but grant the Macro Weapon and First Strike abilities to the unit's normal close combat attack" in the notes just to make it crystal clear (just as with Fire Dragons).

I'd fully support this suggestion. While CC5+ and the conventional power weapon (+1EA MW) has some advantages (it uses the normal power weapon profile, it is somewhat less good at killing RA targets and it is simpler and doesn't require any explanation in the notes), it does mean that a Banshee Exarch would be rather wimpy compared with some of the other aspects.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:48 am 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Feb. 14 2008,17:13)
QUOTE
Having two attacks, one FS and one MW is very, very powerful. I could post relative powers with scorpions, but I don't really see it worth my while right now. While it has the advantage that you can use the normal power weapons profile, it is MUCH more powerful than scorpions - making Banshees better against all types of targets.
We are going to have to find some simple way of presenting stats for general use, so that we can work off the same stats! :p ?:D IMHO, this "double attack" is much less powerfull where the two attacks are resolved separately.

Now, CC4+, that makes more sense with a single First Strike Macro Weapon attack. If that was the intended profile, that would be a perfectly workable solution. While it unfortunately doesn't use the normal power weapons profile, but that's okay.

Not sure here. This generates a 0.5 hit per unit against infantry and armour, and is obviously somewhat better vs RA, and the result is very generalist, possibly slightly weaker than the current stats though it is skewed towards an anti-armour profile.

I don't think two weapons would be a good idea, it's obviously confusing (since we are confused!), ?.
I agree the mechanic of using two separate attacks, one of which is FS is complex, which is its main drawback.

Ok, out of perverse interest, I have tried to put some comparisons of the original CC3+, Scorpions and various alternatives with or without MW, the last two examples being with EA+1. They are all based on the example provided by Neal of 6x Banshees Vs 6x enemy. The figures indicate the average number of casualties that each unit configuration would give for the different armour values.

Armour ? ? Scorpions ? ? ? CC3+ ? ? CC4+, MW ? ? ? CC2+ ? ? CC4+, EA+1 ? ? CC4+, EA+1, MW ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
None ? ? ? ? ? ?6.00 ? ? ? ? ?4.00 ? ? ? ? ?3.00 ? ? ? ? ? ?5.00 ? ? ? ? 5.50 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 5.50 ? ? ? ? ?
6+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?5.00 ? ? ? ? ?3.33 ? ? ? ? ?3.00 ? ? ? ? ? ?4.17 ? ? ? ? 4.65 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?4.94 ? ? ? ? ?
5+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?4.00 ? ? ? ? ?2.67 ? ? ? ? ?3.00 ? ? ? ? ? ?3.33 ? ? ? ? 3.78 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?4.44 ? ? ? ? ?
4+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?3.00 ? ? ? ? ?2.00 ? ? ? ? ?3.00 ? ? ? ? ? ?2.50 ? ? ? ? 2.88 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?4.00 ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
6+RA ? ? ? ? ? ?4.17 ? ? ? ? ?2.78 ? ? ? ? ?2.50 ? ? ? ? ? ?3.47 ? ? ? ? 3.93 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?4.20 ? ? ? ? ? ?
5+RA ? ? ? ? ? ?2.67 ? ? ? ? ?1.78 ? ? ? ? ?2.00 ? ? ? ? ? ?2.22 ? ? ? ? 2.57 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?3.09 ? ? ? ? ? ?
4+RA ? ? ? ? ? ?1.50 ? ? ? ? ?1.00 ? ? ? ? ?1.50 ? ? ? ? ? ?1.25 ? ? ? ? 1.47 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?2.13 ? ? ? ? ? ?

Note, the other idea of adding an ?Infantry power-weapon? to the existing stats would match the current CC3+ stats, save that they would kill 4.00 enemy infantry where the varying figures would then represent the effect Vs armoured vehicles.

Finally, it is interesting to compare the last column against the Scorpions, as CC4+, EA+1, FS with a separate MW attack seems to compare favourably. Also, it is suggested that, the Banshees weaker defensive armour will tend to act as a deterrent against attacking RA targets. The question is whether this deterrent is sufficient.

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Magarch
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:05 pm 
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Well, the main difference with the single attack with the rules Macro Weapon and First Strike (which is the right one from the FERC, just to make things really clear) is that you can more easily strike down the heavy armored opponents before they can attack. This is an important point that doesn't appear in your comparisons - and that can make the difference in a assault.
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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:11 pm 
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(Magarch @ Feb. 15 2008,08:05)
QUOTE
Well, the main difference with the single attack with the rules Macro Weapon and First Strike (which is the right one from the FERC, just to make things really clear) is that you can more easily strike down the heavy armored opponents before they can attack. This is an important point that doesn't appear in your comparisons - and that can make the difference in a assault.

It makes less difference than you would think - the sheer offensive power of the Banshees is the main thing. Against most TANKS (which is what people are worrying about here, right?) they have lousy CC values and aren't likely to kill the Banshees anyway. So FS makes little difference. Of course it makes a huge difference for heavy infantry like Marines or Terminators, but then that's what we want Banshees to be effective against.

So to compare, let's say a unit of Banshees versus a Land Raider.

Probability of killing the Land Raider with one 4+ MW,FS attack:
25%
Probability that the Land Raider kills the Banshees:
8%

Probability of killing the Land Raider with one 4+FS attack and one 4+MW attack:
34%
Probability that the Land Raider kills the Banshees:
9%

You're trading a 1% increased chance of the Banshees dying for a 10% improvement in their offensive capabilities against 4+RA targets.

Against 4+ targets (let's say a Predator or a Marine unit) it's as follows:
Banshees (one attack): 50%
Predator: 6%
Marines: 17%

Banshees (two attacks): 63%
Predator: 8%
Marines: 25%

So... assuming my working is correct... while it is true that having one FS and one MW increases the chances of the Banshees being killed - this really only favours enemy infantry (and titans, but they're going to attack back anyway most of the time as it's much harder to kill them outright so I don't think that's a major issue either). Enemy tanks are simply going to get killed more by two 4+ CC attacks.

Still think one 4+MW FS attack or CC5+, FS and power weapons are the only really balanced ways to go.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:23 pm 
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Actually, I think that was his point. Even if you assume that the Banshees completely fail to do ANY damage to a tank (Or attack it at all!) most tanks only have a 1/9 chance to kill a unit of Banshees. But that's an effect of the tank itself being bad in melee, rather then the Banshees killing it before it gets to make the attack. But, for instance, against Terminators who normally have a 10/9 average chance to kill a unit of banshees (meaning they should average 1 1/9 dead banshee units) in melee the one FS, MW attack cuts them down to a 5/6 chance to off one. While the two attacks, one FS, one MW, leaves them at roughly a 35/36 chance to kill a unit of Banshees in return. That's roughly 1/6th the failure rate! Sure, the banshee's ability to kill them back goes up in the latter version, but their rate of waxing banshees goes up substantially with the 2 attacks compared to the 1 attack.
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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:32 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Feb. 15 2008,14:23)
QUOTE
But, for instance, against Terminators who normally have a 10/9 average chance to kill a unit of banshees

Let me work through this my way, as I don't understand your stats (there's no such thing as a 10/9 chance, did you mean average kills?). Let's say we've a unit of Banshees versus a unit of Terminators. Then we have one attack banshees (i.e. a single attack, MW and FS) versus two attack banshees (one MW and one FS).

One attack banshees:
Banshees kill Termies - 25%
Termies kill Banshees - 50%
Two attack banshees:
Banshees kill Termies - 34%
Termies kill Banshees - 58%

Two attacks are always going to make them more powerful against both vehicles and infantry and relatively more vulnerable to enemy infantry than to enemy tanks.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:01 pm 
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I have gone to the camp of people who feel this discussion is way to intensive and the parties are way too entrenched.  The number are presented and the champ needs to make the decision.

I'll tell you this though - if Lord Inquisitor and Biggles volunteer for any of the projects going on (like Pixelgeek's 6mm ruleset) and put half the effort into it as they have in this miserable Banshee discussion, the project will be done in 3 weeks.  :p

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