Tactical Command | View topic - The Power of Three

Page 1 of 2

[ 21 posts ]

Go to page 1, 2 Next

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts

The Power of Three

PlushWombat

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:22 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:03 am
Posts: 135
Location: State of Confusion (USA)

Greetings All,

Just a quick post to see what the general thoughts are on the subject of the use (and/or abuse) of Titan Battlegroup formations.

The Power of Three:

General consensus seems to run that battle titans follow an organizational pattern of three Warlords or Reavers to a battlegroup.

This seems to have fallen out of favor for two reasons:

1) the costs associated with actually fielding a three titan battle group in a medium points level game and;

2) the old buy three for the cost of two rule.

That being said, perhaps one way ?to address this issue (assuming that folks wish it addressed ?

) would be to allow a titan player to group battle titans in a three unit battle group and pay a lesser amount to do so....but with some restrictions (see below)

At this point, I'm not suggesting any point values as I really don't know what might work and what might be unbalanced. ?Only that there could be some sort of price break for deploying in this manner.

One Possible Method:

One method for offsetting the price break could be to require anyone taking a titan battlegroup to operate it as a single formation according to the war engine formation rules.

On the one hand, you would gain a price break at the cost of loosing activations...not sure it would be worth it....but to me..at least from an operational standpoint (and fluff standpoint)...it would seem that the AdMech should have after 10,000 years developed a more sophisticated operational doctrine for the use and deployment of titans besides simply ?just deploying them as a group of seperate individual units.

Just a thought!

PlushWombat ? :;):

Obscure Factoid:

The Omnisiah and HAL are one and the same!

_________________
Cry Havoc! and Let Slip the Puppies of Confusion!

Top

Ilushia

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:53 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

This one (or some variation there of) gets kicked around every once in a while. Ultimately the problems usually remain the same: You've got a single activation which chews up 1/2-2/3(or more) of your point cost. And virtually anything you point the formation at is going to just evaporate (A single auto-passing activation to make something like 25x AP 3+ and 16x AT 3+ shots from 3 Reavers? That's pretty mean, and sufficient to absolutely trash most targets. Even on a double you could put a huge dent in just about anything. And sustained fire would be just absurd!). The end result is that you wind up with very very few activations and virtually no way to use them functionally because everything you point them at just vanishes like a puff of smoke or you end up wasting a huge portion of your firepower shooting enemies to death two or three times over!

Top

Chroma

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:11 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

I think one just needs a different perspective on this: If you're fielding three Warlords or Reavers, they *are* a Titan Battlegroup!

It's just that they're not slaved together and stuck doing the same things, but can work to support each other as necessary.

From a game perspective, having all those points in one formation, while next to invulnerable to Break Their Spirit, it greatly limits your options on the table.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Top

PlushWombat

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:58 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:03 am
Posts: 135
Location: State of Confusion (USA)

You are absolutely right Chroma, :;):

Three titans are a battlegroup...its just that one never gets the chance to see it all that often due to the cost problems.

And while I agree with the points both you you and Ilushia mentioned about the problems created when one fields the "uber killy formation o death"...well fluff wise isn't that what a three titan battle group would be?

From a fluff persperctive...if each battle titan represents a nearly irreplaceable example of technology...why would the AdMech deploy them in a manner (single unit formations) that leaves them more vulnerable to loss? :glare:

In the end...all I really want for christmas Santa Chroma....is to able to play a 3,000 point with a decent AMTL list that isn't bland and lets me use more than one Warlord. ?Please speak to your elves and see what you can do!

Regards!

PlushWombat

_________________
Cry Havoc! and Let Slip the Puppies of Confusion!

Top

ragnarok

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:13 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England

Why do you think the current list ideas are a bit bland?

What sort of thing are you looking for in the AMTL list?

How much is the Rent?

_________________
Tyranid air marshal

Top

Chroma

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:25 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(PlushWombat @ Feb. 14 2008,14:58)

QUOTE

Well, here's a dual-Warlord list put together using my "White Knights" Titan Legion list.

Having two Warlords certainly limits your activations, but it makes for two very *hard* activations for your to rely on.

White Knights Titan Legion ? 3000 points

Warlord 1 ? (BTS Goal)
Carapace Multilasers
Veteran Princeps - Battle Honours (inspiring)
Lasburner
Melta Cannon
Heavy Gatling Blaster
Open Level 3 Mount for +5cm movement

Warlord 2
Carapace Multilasers
Volcano Cannon
Plasma Cannon
Plasma Cannon
Heavy Gatling Blaster

Warhound Pack
Warhound 1
Titan Rocket Launcher
Titan Rocket Launcher
Warhound 2
Light Turbolaser
Plasma Blastgun

Recon Platoon
4 Sentinels

Skitarii Platoon
1 Tribune
7 Hypaspists
4 Chimeras

Skitarii Assault Platoon
1 Tribune
5 Praetorian Combat Servitors
3 Chimeras

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Top

Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:26 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA

(PlushWombat @ Feb. 14 2008,09:58)

QUOTE

In the end...all I really want for christmas Santa Chroma....is to able to play a 3,000 point with a decent AMTL list that isn't bland and lets me use more than one Warlord.

Nothing in the current AMTL list prevents you from fielding three Warlords. I personally wouldn't do it, because that's 2,650 points for only three activations and leaves only 350 points for everything else. Only If I were playing a larger game say, 5,000 points, would I consider taking three Warlords.

The only other alternative for you would be lowering the cost of a Warlord, but I don't see that happening. Being able to field three Warlords for the cost of two is too good of an advantage, even if they did operate as one detachment.

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Top

PlushWombat

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:59 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:03 am
Posts: 135
Location: State of Confusion (USA)

Thanks for the list suggestions Chroma...I'll take them for a spin around the block and see how I like them!

Dwarf Supreme..I agree with your asssement about trying to take three Warlords in a 3,000 point game not being a good idea....which is what started this whole post in the first place ?

..trying to figure out some way to get more titany goodness for my points without destroying play balance!

Ragnarok...Something like Chroma's "White Knights" has more apeal to me than the current AMTL list...and I'm flexable on the space rent!

Regards

PlushWombat

_________________
Cry Havoc! and Let Slip the Puppies of Confusion!

Top

Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:11 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA

If you're looking for "titany goodness" (and who isn't?

), consider taking Reavers. I've found them to be pretty effective.

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Top

Chroma

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:54 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

Another army, with 1 Warlord and 2 Reavers...

White Knights Titan Legion 2 ? 3000 points

Warlord ? (BTS Goal)
Carapace Multilasers
Lasburner
Corvus Assault Pod
Melta Cannon
Open Level 3 Mount for +5cm movement

Reaver 1
Carapace Multilasers
Plasma Cannon
Plasma Cannon
Heavy Gatling Blaster

Reaver 2
Carapace Multilasers
Lasburner
Multiple Rocket Launcher
Multiple Rocket Launcher

Warhound Titan 1
Titan Rocket Launcher
Titan Rocket Launcher

Warhound Titan 2
Light Gatling Blaster
Light Gatling Blaster

Recon Platoon
4 Sentinels

Skitarii Assault Platoon
1 Tribune
5 Praetorian Combat Servitors

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Top

PlushWombat

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:21 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:03 am
Posts: 135
Location: State of Confusion (USA)

Another Interesting list Chroma!

I'm assuming that the corvus pod is to be used to transport the skitarii assault squad?

As a general aside...on the subject of Reavers...while definitely a useful and viable combat titan..there is just something about that spradle legged stance on the miniatures that annoys me!

Regards

PlushWombat

Thought of the Day:

Illigitimi Non Carborundom

_________________
Cry Havoc! and Let Slip the Puppies of Confusion!

Top

Ilushia

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:49 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

As you point out, Warlords (And Reavers even more) are difficult to produce and hard as nails. They're like battleships in a World War II era navy. They're incredibly powerful, really tough to kill and can obliterate most targets pretty quick. They're also really hard to replace, taking years of work to build each one (Though I'd imagine they probably build them in lots of 5 or 6 at a time, rather then singly, much like we do naval ships!). As a result, you'll VERY rarely see more then one of these behemoths on a single battlefield. 3 Warlords, while 'supportive' of one another represent a tremendous deployment of power by the AMTL and would realistically only be seen close enough together to be on one battlefield when fighting a very large battle, like a siege against a hive (Even THAT might not use more then one Warlord, really!).

Far more likely you'd have 1 Warlord, 2 Reavers, a few Warhounds and lots of Infantry to back them up. At 3000 points that's tough to do all at once, but it's definitely possible to field 1 Warlord, 2 Reavers and a reasonable number of supporting elements. Unfortunately giving AMTL a significant price break on their titans, while helpful in making the list more able to win, could unbalance things very quickly and potentially allow for armies which no one would want to fight!

Top

Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:59 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA

(PlushWombat @ Feb. 14 2008,12:21)

QUOTE

As a general aside...on the subject of Reavers...while definitely a useful and viable combat titan..there is just something about that spradle legged stance on the miniatures that annoys me!

Really? The Reaver is one of my favorite minis.

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Top

NOVAGUARD

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:29 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:37 pm
Posts: 406

the idea of a titan battle group is aways a great mental image of death dealing god machines, but i view the AMTL lists as one of those things that will not see alot of stuff on the table till you hit the big game levels. until then its 1-2 battle titans plus support.

hell its not like 2 battle titans is a small amount of firepower...

_________________
Legio Nova guard: Finished
legio Storm lords: built
legio warp runners: un built
skitari: built
Eldar: in boxes
Orks: built, gargants painted
Ultra marines: 5 companies
Thousand sones: 5 companies (unpainted)

Top

PlushWombat

Post subject: The Power of Three

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:59 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:03 am
Posts: 135
Location: State of Confusion (USA)

Of course, one argument in favor of deploying titans in battlegroups that has yet to be mentioned (but being the perceptive group that you are...I have no doubt you have considered it ? :;):

) is the ability to utilise combined arms doctrine when choosing titan weapon loadouts.

As we all know..not all titan loadouts are created equal...that is...each has a particular niche... and while a titan might be quite effective in that niche...it can fall prey to units designed to exploit its particular weaknesses.

Of course...it can be fun to try to make do..when you guess wrong...such as deploying a Warlord armed with 4 melta's and you are facing an IG opponent armed with lots of long ranged weapons...shadowswords anyone?

In any event, Battlegroups would tend to minimize this effect as each titan could be designed to offer mutual support to its brethren...as well as other units.

That being said, one could take the view that the current AMTL list (and by extension...EPIC as a whole) is intended to limit the number of titans in any given battle to reflect their scarcity...and its does tend to work..after a fashion.

Regards

PlushWombat

Excerpt from the Ordus Xenos Codex of Hertical Lifeforms:

The PlushWombat...most harmless...yet very silly....Recomendation: Extermantus!

_________________
Cry Havoc! and Let Slip the Puppies of Confusion!

Top

Print view

Previous topic | Next topic

Page 1 of 2

[ 21 posts ]

Go to page 1, 2 Next

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:

The Power of Three

Who is online