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Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
Moscovian
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:41 pm 
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CS, I meant the thread to be goofy but with a serious discussion underneath.  So far so good.

Can you explain your post above?  I don't understand how anyone could be against it when two core armies have non-25's (my new name for them).  Space Marines have Tornados and Orks have a a bazillion examples (135 points?!).  The example has been set and with it I don't know what kind of real difference it makes other than ease of addition.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:58 pm 
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(Nicodemus @ Feb. 07 2008,09:54)
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Divide every cost by 5 so we get nice 600 point tournament lists. Ork Nob, 7 points, Ork boy and optional grot, 5 points etc.

I have always found it strange to every unit cost something that is divideable by 5. If anything cant cost 24 points, we have no reasons (aside tradition) to keep things as they are...

Makes a lot of sense to me. Shame this path wasn't chosen at the start perhaps.  Would be more in line with other systems I use like DBX or WFB.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:44 am 
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Maybe when they builded Epic they wanted armies to "feel" bigger than they are. If in 40K tournament army is 1500 points then in epic it should be 3000 (wow lot bigger!). Maybe I should start playing epic with 6000 points army, just multiply every cost by 2.

Nah, traditions are good. :)

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zombocom
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:13 pm 
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Hena: it doesn't have 25 point options. There are two entirely seperate army lists here, one with four options that all cost 25 points, and one with 2 options that cost 40 points and two that cost 20.

The entire point of this thought experiment is to show that 25 point increments don't neccesarily mean less min-maxing.

Your argument holds no water.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:31 pm 
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Hena: In that case, why not change ALL lists to be 25 point based? Oh wait, that would be pointless, because you might as well divide by 25 and play 120 point games. Even better, fit everything to 100 point costs and remove all choice from the game!

The fact is that some units are worth more than 25 and less than 50, and that having more options doesn't lead to minmaxing.

Hena, you seem to be the only person who feels this way, does that not suggest you may be mistaken?

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:51 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 08 2008,11:31)
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Hena, you seem to be the only person who feels this way, does that not suggest you may be mistaken?

Once again somebody who disagrees is wrong just because he is alone.

Just because of that: I agree with Hena. So now he is not alone, and you have to figure out some arguments to prove your point and not just use mob rule.

And because I have seen what happens when you disagree in these forums (you get lynched) I shall stop reading this topic so I wont get lynched again, just to have different opinion than some other.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:12 pm 
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Sigh. I don't agree with you that the whole 25/non 25 mathematically works in your favour, I just can't be bothered arguing it any more. You are so obviously and provably wrong that it's not even worth it.

I'm going to say that the moon is made of cake, and I'll ignore everyone telling me that I'm wrong. Just because noone agrees with me, I shouldn't take that as any indication that I'm wrong, right Hena?

By the way, I agree that wraiths should be 50, but immortals aren't worth 50 by any stretch, and pariahs are worth more than 50 but not 75.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:20 pm 
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Nicodemus, here is one example: when you think everybody is out to get you, you might just be paranoid.   :p

Okay, as I slowly fade away from my own thread and watch you guys brawl  :devil:  I want to leave you with some thoughts.

1. I think this discussion illustrates that the vast majority of players don't mind point values that deviate from the 25 point denominations.  That means when building a list army champs shouldn't get too caught up on the point values.  If you are having problems balancing a unit cost don't get pigeon holed into a 25 point 'slot'.

2. You may disagree (as is your right) but if you do, take into account that most players don't mind it and in fact think it is silly to get all worked up over it.  I personally find it an annoying topic - so annoying that I went out of my way to make this thread.  

3. Approaching the limit on a list is a totally legal thing to do in a game and in fact is encouraged.  If the limit is 3000 both players SHOULD want to maximize their point values.  If they don't want to then they must have a very clever plan up their sleeve or are terribly green.

4. If point values of formations and upgrades have odd values that result in you having LESS than the limit (ex. 2985 points out of 3000) then the limiter will be in most cases the lowest valued upgrade.  In other words, if you can't reach 3000 points in a list and the smallest upgrade value is 40 points, the most you can be off is 35 points.  As Crabowl pointed out this is a small percentage of the army's total.  As a list designer, be sensitive to odd values since they could make a bigger difference if the smallest upgrades or formations are 150 or 165 points for instance.  I haven't seen this ANYWHERE but it could happen.  There are some circumstances that violate this rule (like the inability to upgrade a formation with that small valued upgrade) but that is what list building is all about.

5. And relating to the above, just because you are under your limit doesn't mean your opponent is NOT under his limit.  He is possibly dealing with the same problems as you.  In a tournament setting, the odds are even that he'll be short too, thus making the game more balanced.

6. Being under can happen even in standard lists like IG that have all 50 point increments.  If you are stubborn enough on your list composition, it is possible to end up with formations that have reached their limit of cheap upgrades.  In the end you can be off by 50 points possibly (since the next break is 100 points for a Sentinel formation).  You may also have filled all of your support formation allocations which means you can create a list that is off by 200 points (the cost of an infantry core formation being 250 points).

So I have devoted waaaay too much time to trying to convince you that this problem isn't a problem.  I am backing away from the keyboard and will go drum up another Top 10 list. :p

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:25 pm 
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Edit2: Just to point out that I'm used to having different opinion than others. Mainly as I don't "follow the herd" if I see the herd going wrong. So throwing stuff like "You are alone thus wrong" is not going change anything on what I post.


You can say that again.

I don't think I've ever actually seen you change a single opinion (You're still arguing in favour of returning elements to the Tyranid list that were removed ages ago...)... so, you think that non-25pt increments encourages min-maxing, without offering any evidence as to why.

Frankly, the only thing that enourages min-maxing is poor list design combined with stats.

Your argument that 'non 25pt divisions encourages min-maxing' is actually 'Hena doesn't like adding up non 25pt divisions so he'll make up a spurious justification to back up his dislike'.

Hena, it's no bad thing to say 'I prefer that lists be tidy and there never need be points left over when I'm done making my list'. That's a legitimate argument, and even if I disagree with it, I can at least sympathise with the sentiment.

It is on the other hand hypocritical to attempt to justify your dislike by picking a patantly false reason and entrenching your argument around it.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:29 pm 
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Argument is the point


Debate is the point.

Hena, you do not debate. You argue.




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zombocom
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:31 pm 
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Hena: I didn't say that you were wrong just because everyone is against you, I said that the fact that everyone is against you is reason enough to consider that you may be wrong.

There's a pretty clear difference there, and you are refusing to even consider that you may be wrong.

That's what I did! I used to be on your side, preferring for all lsits to have 25 point increments. Then I realised the majority of people were against this, so I reconsidered the evidence from a fair a neutral standpoint, and found the evidence swung the other way, so I changed my mind.

You'll find another example of this in the necron thread. I was campaigning for AA6+ on heavy destroyers, but when it became clear that noone else was interested in this I backed down with the suggestion.

We can never get anywhere with list development if we're not willing to back down when outnumbered.




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