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Howling Banshees
rpr
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:47 pm 
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Actually that MW cc (not EA but basic attack) does not sound that bad... of course it must be crafted so that it is balanced with others.
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Wisp
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:39 am 
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Would it be too complicated to give them a macro (or lance, although macro fits better) melee weapon that only worked against infantry? Since both fluffwise and 40kgamewise they're -the- anti-infantry unit, while not being too good against any heavy tanks with their piddly little blades and pistols.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:12 am 
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- - - - So if you want MW, take Firedragons which make superb support troops and do it at a distance. (try doubling them into range and firing, then assaulting with something else with FD support. In combination with a formation of Shining Spears, even major Titans can be very vulnerable)

Ilushia is correct that they are not unique in what they do, but to some extent, that is only part of the issue, because they don't combine well with other Aspects either, nor do they really live up to what they are supposed to be able to do. Hence people do not use them because other Aspects do it better - and if the are used, they only get sent after "dead meat" because they are more fragile.

As I said earlier, they definitely need better armour and either a better attack or possibly more speed.
Ignore Cover would be a unique feature amoung the Aspects and make them better vs infantry, as would a second attack (hence the +1 EA suggestion which puts them on a par with Striking Scorpions) and combined, this would give them the edge as they could then winkle infantry out of defences etc as "Ignore Cover" negates cover saves.

Given some or all of these improvements, which would best allow them to be combined with other troop types to enhance the whole, which is after all the hallmark of the Eldar as a race?




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:16 am 
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Well, i see Howling Banshees as the lighter armoured CC version of the Fire Dragons.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:21 am 
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Except that they bothe have 5+ armour at present. The reason why FD die less easily is IMO because they are FF troops so stay further out of range of the enemy than the HB which being CC troops get more counter-fire.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:27 am 
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Well that is the price of sitting on the face of their foe and screaming their lungs at them :D

And yes the armour is a bit strange. Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons should have armour 4+.




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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:08 am 
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There are a number of "strange" features about the aspects as a whole, including why Dire Avengers Exarchs get a Close combat weapon (thus effectively denying them an effective extra attack), why the different armour values (I would have suggested all CC troops would choose to be better armoured than their FF bretheren), Why Exarch which are budding Supreme Commanders do not get "Commander" etc -

But one step at a time here :p lets just consider Banshees for the moment

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:19 am 
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CC weapon for Dire Avenger Exarchs fits the background.
Yes it is nonsensical in Wh40k too :D

If i had build the aspects i had given the Banshees an armour of only 6+, FirstStrike on the units stats and CC2+, FF6+ :) perhabs with Lance on the CC attack or a note that their CC-attack ignores infantry amour saves.
Perhabs because Eldar and expecially Banshees are supposed to be SO agile and whatnot i had boosted their armour to 5+. But THEN Guardians should have armour 6+




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Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:08 am 
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What about sniper on their CC attacks... gives -1 to armour saves...

Again, just brainstorming here!

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Markconz
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:40 am 
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Original design of the Aspects was to give them each their own flavour similar to 40k and fluff, but to also make them balanced against each other in Epic.
Getting characterful balanced units in Epic overode direct translations into Epic, though quirks like the Dire Avenger Exarch were kept.

On the MW issue, important to remember that just 'ignoring armour save in 40k' shouldn't be enough for such a powerful ability as MW in Epic. That's only part of the equation in the 40k system for how strong a weapon is, and ignores considerations of strength and infantry toughness/armour value of vehicles. Banshee attacks are still weak, certainly cannot compare to the power of a firedragon fusion gun against either armoured infantry or tanks.  MW should as a general rule of thumb IMO be restricted to ST 8+ ignore armour abilities or similar, such as units/characters with melta weapons, powergloves/melta bombs, force weapons etc.  Bog standard hair straighteners like the banshees wave around shouldn't qualify I think.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:54 am 
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(Markconz @ Feb. 06 2008,18:40)
QUOTE
On the MW issue, important to remember that just 'ignoring armour save in 40k' shouldn't be enough for such a powerful ability as MW in Epic.

Adding MW to them would make them do very "unfluffy things like punch through Leman Russ armour much better.

As was mentioned, the problem was that the Aspects needed to be balanced against one another to make it easier to balance the army.

Having unique costs for the Aspects made the list a PITA to balance...

It has lead to some issues but the Banshees may just be another one of those units that aren't as effective in Epic.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:00 am 
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My main objection to adding MW is the apparent MW creep that is always prevalent on the boards.  Unit underpowered?  Macro it!!  Adding MW to anything usually results in the unit being overpowered (do I need to bring up the Demolisher?  Ooops!  I just did!  :devil:)

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:17 am 
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Because of macro-creep i'm in favour of Lance.
Lance is rare in the army lists but some weapons which are MW now deserve to have Lance instead.

Unsurprisingly my Wh40k-weapons-to-Epic system is very MW-light :)




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Tooninki
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:37 am 
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(Hena @ Feb. 07 2008,10:23)
QUOTE

(pixelgeek @ Feb. 07 2008,04:54)
QUOTE
As was mentioned, the problem was that the Aspects needed to be balanced against one another to make it easier to balance the army.

Having unique costs for the Aspects made the list a PITA to balance...

It has lead to some issues but the Banshees may just be another one of those units that aren't as effective in Epic.

My rationale for +1EA to first strike attack is to make them equivalent to Striking Scorpions. If one want's CC aspect, then it's one of them. So if they are equal, it's merely personal choice. At the moment one has +1EA other does not, so it's not really equivalent. After that EA, their difference is first strike vs better save (4+ and 5+). You could even drop the save to 6+ if the first strike is considered good enough ability

I like what Hena suggests!
First strike or better save! your choice! ?:D
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