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Howling Banshees
Moscovian
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:09 pm 
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(Ginger @ Feb. 02 2008,20:15)
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(Moscovian @ Feb. 02 2008,19:52)
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I think they work really well - my recommend is to leave them alone. ?If you really wanted to tinker with them you could try borrowing something from the Dark Eldar: the units gain a 5+ armor on assaults only to represent their prowess in close combat and firefights. ?So far the DE Wyches have been without complaint.

I am not sure what you mean here Mosc - they already have a 5+ armour save... perhaps making them 4+ armour in assaults (which is certainly something to consider). I would agree that one of their main weaknesses is that they die easily in assaults - mainly due to enemy counter-fire despite having First Strike, because CC brings them into range of rearward units and supports.

I should have clarified this; sorry!  What I meant to say is the Wyches get a bump in armor from nothing to 5+ but only in assaults and I thought a similar dynamic for the Banshees might work.

Your assumption about improving the armor to a 4+ during assaults is precisely what I was getting at.  It would be a simple note at the bottom of the datafax, wouldn't change the unit tremendously (which has its appeal), and would show an increase in their assaulting combat abilities without changing them to CC2+ (egads!), fearless (don't go there), or infiltrators (please don't).

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:27 pm 
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My suggestion:

Reduce CC to 4+ and give them MW to that single attack.

After all, they have power weapons.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:10 pm 
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Combining several thoughts here, how about the following:-
- CC 4+ ?FF 5+
- Banshee Mask (Base contact) +1 Extra Attack, Lance, Ignore cover
- Shuriken pistols . . Small arms
- Unit Notes :- First strike, Armour 4+ in assault (their natural agility makes them harder to hit at close quarters)

By moving FS to the unit, it means that Lance and Disrupt only apply to the subsequent CC Extra attack on a target which may no longer exist. This reduces the apparent power quite significantly because it requires each HB to be B-B with 2x enemy in order to guarantee the extra attack occuring.

Lance (or possibly MW) on the extra attack gives the 'anti armour' punch that Lord =I= wants - but only if the enemy survives the FS.

(edited to clarify CC and IC)




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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:26 pm 
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- Disrupt is pretty pointless in assaults and would probably confuse people seriously.
- I don't think having a different armour in assault is a good idea - that's a very special rule, and we want to avoid special rules like that. Keep it simple.
- an extra attack and lance or MW is going to be way too powerful. Either an extra attack or lance or MW, not more than one.

Hey, just realised you're Biggles!  :p
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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:40 pm 
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Curses, my alter ego is discovered - - :p

Umm, I take the point on IC rather than Disrupt, but why is Lance on the EA too good?

Also, I was only adopting the suggestion put forward by Mosc. If you prefer, we could just make the armour 4+, but while simpler, it felt like too much of a boost combined with everything else. However, the armour boost is the most important reqirement IMHO




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:48 pm 
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I agree that the armor change is highly specialized but I was only proposing it in light of some of the other changes being offered.  I agree that MW, Lance, infiltrate, and fearless will clearly bounce the Banshee unit into overpowered status.  The armor change would be IMO a last resort for the Banshee if indeed it needed to be changed (which I do not think it does).  Banshees are nasty to all-infantry formations such as Guard.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:24 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Feb. 06 2008,17:48)
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Banshees are nasty to all-infantry formations such as Guard.

As nasty as Striking Scorpions?  I'd rather have double the attacks...

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:38 pm 
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First strike means there might not be anyone left to strike back at you.  I actually used four Banshees in a mixed aspect formation for the sole purpose of whittling down the number of responding rolls back.

I understand they are not THE BEST aspects and may even be the worst, but the difference between the worst and the best isn't that large IMO.  Not large enough to justify adding a whole other attack or some of the other suggestions.  Perhaps a 2+ CC?  Maybe.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:41 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Feb. 06 2008,18:38)
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First strike means there might not be anyone left to strike back at you. ?I actually used four Banshees in a mixed aspect formation for the sole purpose of whittling down the number of responding rolls back.

Okay, why wouldn't you (if you had the models) use Warp Spiders for this instead?  Much more versitility, movement, and survivability.

Having to get the Banshees into base contact means it's far tougher to clip with them; Warp Spiders excel at that.

Stylistically, I *LOVE* Banshees (What's not to like about hot Elven chicks with swords?!), but tactically, they blow.

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:03 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 06 2008,18:53)
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(Chroma @ Feb. 06 2008,20:41)
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Stylistically, I *LOVE* Banshees (What's not to like about hot Elven chicks with swords?!), but tactically, they blow.

Considering that if they are hot elven chicks, this might not be such a bad thing ... :devil:  :glare:  :D

Outrageous!

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rpr
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:21 pm 
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I would go for CC 2+ - although I wonder if this would be enough for me to take them...

(as a side-question: why exarch in dire avengers has +cc ea?)
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Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:26 pm 
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(rpr @ Feb. 06 2008,20:21)
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I would go for CC 2+ - although I wonder if this would be enough for me to take them...

Funny that it's still a question of whether one would take them or not, even with an awesome CC value... what are they lacking?

(as a side-question: why exarch in dire avengers has +cc ea?)
Because, bizarrely, in 40k their "Exarch Wargear" is usually a Diresword!

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:44 pm 
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What are they lacking, honestly? Uniqueness. They don't do anything which nothing else does. You want first strike? You can take Warp Spiders. You want melee punch? Take Striking Scorpions. They wrap both together but don't do either particularly as well as the guys designed to do just those things. It's not that they're -bad-, exactly, it's just that in a list  of 'specialist' troops, they lack any real specialty which no one else can give you.
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