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Howling Banshees
Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:57 pm 
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I believe that Howling Banshees are generally considered inferior to other Aspect warrior and thus rarely fielded.

The current discussions made me wonder whether making them Fearless would help. What do you think?

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Charad
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:21 pm 
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Raise CC to 2+.. They are accurate tool rather than slaughter houses (scorpions). Fearless really don't fit their feel.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:52 pm 
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I think they work really well - my recommend is to leave them alone.  If you really wanted to tinker with them you could try borrowing something from the Dark Eldar: the units gain a 5+ armor on assaults only to represent their prowess in close combat and firefights.  So far the DE Wyches have been without complaint.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:11 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 02 2008,18:25)
QUOTE
Fearless would make them too good. Perfect air assault combo with all Banshees in that case.

Edit: Alternatively make that first strike attack +1EA and drop CC to 4+?

Yes Fearless too good (and can't see any justification for it).

Would 2x4+ be too much like scorpions maybe...? Maybe not.

2+CC hmm, maybe...

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Niblebitzer
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:13 am 
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(Markconz @ Feb. 02 2008,20:11)
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Yes Fearless too good (and can't see any justification for it).

Would 2x4+ be too much like scorpions maybe...? Maybe not.

2+CC hmm, maybe...

I like this. Fearless is way too good and non fluffy and they shouldnt be scorpions either. 2+ might give wanted upgrade with the first strike. Might even be better than scorpions with that but its hard to balance with 1/6 grades.

EA+1 with first strike and CC5+ might be pretty much equal to EA & CC4+. Only minor difference in overall depending on targer of course. Thou 5+CC and EA wouldnt be agreed, because people just look at plain numbers, not overall result.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:15 am 
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Ok guys, I get the hint about Fearless - though I was also contemplating limiting the numbers in any given formation, say 4x maximum.

(Moscovian @ Feb. 02 2008,19:52)
QUOTE
I think they work really well - my recommend is to leave them alone. ?If you really wanted to tinker with them you could try borrowing something from the Dark Eldar: the units gain a 5+ armor on assaults only to represent their prowess in close combat and firefights. ?So far the DE Wyches have been without complaint.

I am not sure what you mean here Mosc - they already have a 5+ armour save. Are you suggesting making it weaker while adding Fearless (which seems contrary to the gist of the response), or perhaps making them 4+ armour in assaults (which is certainly something to consider). I would agree that one of their main weaknesses is that they die easily in assaults - mainly due to enemy counter-fire despite having First Strike, because CC brings them into range of rearward units and supports.

Hena, I quite like the feel of keeping First strike on the weapon, but adding +1 Extra attack, and dropping the CC to 4+. Definitely worth considering

Some other thoughts:-
- Disrupt on the CC atttacks (a possibility considered by Sotec) in the SG boards
- Move the First Strike to the unit rather than the weapon
- Add Lance to their CC attacks to make them better against armour (more fluffy apparently)
- Increasing their armour to 4+ to make them generally more resilient

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Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:18 am 
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Two ideas:

Either 1) Give them infiltrators

or

2) Give them 20cm move

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:45 am 
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Improving movement does't really help here unless either their attack is improved in some way (+1 Extra Attack), or their armour is improved (4+). My suggestion would be to try :-
- Moving First strike to the notes,
- Giving them +1 Extra Attack,
- Reducing them to CC4+,
- either infiltrate or improved armour (4+).

With two Exarchs, this would improve their average hits slightly from 6.6 to somehwere less than 10 (First Strike would remove some CC targets for the extra attack). The choice of either infiltrate or armour means that they will not be as good as Warp Spiders, and so will reduce the quality of a combined formation.

If you wanted to distinguish them further from WS, perhaps consider giving the extra attack Disrupt as suggested by Sotec.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:56 am 
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Well Scorpions have staying power and are able to kill multiple targets but on less chance.

Banshees strike first and very hart but have less staying power and  don't have the potential to kill as much as Scorpions.

So i'm for CC2+ and FirstStrike to the units notes as the only changes.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:01 pm 
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I must admit that I really like the idea of 'infiltrate' for the HBs.

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Fenvarien
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:15 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Feb. 05 2008,12:01)
QUOTE
I must admit that I really like the idea of 'infiltrate' for the HBs.

Me too.  :)  That would give them a special character and make them competitive again. Maybee combined with some Warpspiders this would make a damn cool Aspect Formation.  :cool:  Thumbs up!
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:17 pm 
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With this reasoning all Eldar infantry should have Infiltrate or 20cm move because in Wh40k nearly all Eldar have the "Fleet" special ability.

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Niblebitzer
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:23 pm 
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Give howling banshees disrupt to CC attacks too, leave rest as is. It would be almost fluffy and it would make HBs very specialized tough target breakers. Thou once again difference between AV and INF targets is difficult but possibly acceptable.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:17 pm 
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(Niblebitzer @ Feb. 05 2008,12:23)
QUOTE
Give howling banshees disrupt to CC attacks too, leave rest as is. It would be almost fluffy and it would make HBs very specialized tough target breakers. Thou once again difference between AV and INF targets is difficult but possibly acceptable.

Disrupt doesn't really work in assaults very well, as Blast markers are assigned *after* combat resolution, not during, so adding disrupt will have, essentially, little effect at all.

BlackLegion, as to infiltrators on Banshees, well, they are know for their "acrobatic" style of combat, getting into tight places to chop up their foes... I think it's very rare for them to fire their Shuriken Pistols all that often, so they're probably "fleeting" more than most!  *laugh*

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