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Necrons v4.4 thoughts
Onyx
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:23 am 
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zombocom - Perhaps if your Monoliths hadn't been getting more saves than they should (many inv. saves) they might have been breaking at a much higher rate. You are right in saying that a broken Monolith can still do it job well but you only have to put another blast marker on it and it is destroyed.

With that in mind, killing your 5 lone Monoliths should have been more achievable and you wouldn't have been able to wait until the enemy had used their activations before bringing your Phalanxes on.

If the enemy out activates you then the obvious tactic is to remove the number advantage and killing lone Monoliths is the easiest way to do this (hence the need for Obelisks - not more Monoliths with more complicated rules on how many units can use them).




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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:50 am 
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hmmm.

Maybe if they weren't fearless.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:03 am 
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Onyx, monoliths are fearless. Blast markers do nothing to them when broken

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Onyx
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:04 am 
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zombo - yeah I got that when Corey posted it right before you did...

D'oh! ?:blush:
Well maybe they shouldn't be fearless, then you would have to protect them better (although fearless certainly fits with being Necron).

I don't envy you at all with all of this Corey.

I'll but out of here for a bit and let you figure this out...
I'm obviously not being much help.

I've got an army ready to play. Corey - is there any specific things we can test or just play 4.3 and get on with it? My regular opponent from last year is now living 3000 kms away. My only other experienced player lives 4 hrs drive north of here and we only get to play every now and then. I have 2 other opponents but they are both just starting and dropping Necrons on them could put them off for life!




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:21 am 
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(Chroma @ Feb. 04 2008,14:02)
QUOTE

(BlackLegion @ Feb. 04 2008,12:17)
QUOTE
The Necrons portals ARE different to Wraithgates.
If true to the fluff and Wh40k rules Necrons should be able to remove units if they are near a portal (say 15cm of a Monolith) and would imediately come out of another portal anywhere on the board.

Actually, the Necron Portals *do* allow that...

I've used it to good effect to get broken Phalanxes away from the action so they can't be wiped out before they phase out.

Ah, ok. I only had skimmed the rules :) Good that my ideas are similar to the rules used now :D

But what i just realised: Initiative 1+? Why? Necrons tend to be notorioulsy slow witted. Ok they will receive their orders without any problemsi n communication but the are slow to react to new threats (literally low initiative in Wh40k).

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:34 am 
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40k initiative is a measure of reaction time and speed in combat. ?Pretty much like the RPG usage of the term does.

Initiative in Epic is different. ?It represents discipline and coordination in regards to following the orders they are given.

Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, Titans, etc are elite troops/units who's discpline and coordination are the stuff of legend. ?That's why they have Initiative of 1+

Ork are completely UNdiciplined and, unless you are giving them an order they really wanted in the first place, are likely to get it all wrong. ?That's why their initiative sucks.

Necrons dicipline and coordination are the stuff of nightmares. ?They react with perfect, flawless precision and timing without the need for any apearant need for comminication. ?They are unable to NOT follow the orders they are given. ?That's the reason the origional list gave them the ability to automatically pass activation rolls.

Since that was more than a little over the top, It got scaled back to them being ONLY as diciplined as Space Marines.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:37 am 
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(Onyx @ Feb. 05 2008,19:04)
QUOTE
zombo - yeah I got that when Corey posted it right before you did...

D'oh! ?:blush:
Well maybe they shouldn't be fearless, then you would have to protect them better (although fearless certainly fits with being Necron).

I don't envy you at all with all of this Corey.

I'll but out of here for a bit and let you figure this out...
I'm obviously not being much help.

I've got an army ready to play. Corey - is there any specific things we can test or just play 4.3 and get on with it? My regular opponent from last year is now living 3000 kms away. My only other experienced player lives 4 hrs drive north of here and we only get to play every now and then. I have 2 other opponents but they are both just starting and dropping Necrons on them could put them off for life!

actually my post in response to you before was because your comment made me think that perhaps if the Monoliths weren't fearless people would stop freaking out.

It was me sort of thinking outloud.  :blues:

Go forth and do what damage you can in your game.  If you think there's something wrong with the list, try to play that out in a game.  Also explain what you are doing to your oponent and see if he can think of a way around what you are doing or a way to make your point more dramatically. :)

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Niblebitzer
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:14 am 
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(nealhunt @ Feb. 04 2008,22:21)
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Until the Necrons are on board and commit to a strategy, it remains exactly as stated above - they own everything.

This brings my mind...

I know that this can be done with all teleporting terminators and drop pods but they are still different. Minimum difference is portals and scattering pods.

Would you think that it viable tactic to hold off your monoliths untill turn three and drop your necrons to grab objectives for easy victory? It wouldnt be fun, thats certain but you might win easily.

I can imagine it would be pretty difficult for opponent to react to this because necrons initial strike is very strong and popcorn monoliths allow army to be anywhere on the table. Sure necrons could react earlier if opponent makes mistake and splits up his army.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:36 am 
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I've considered that kind of tactic before Nible, but I don't think it'd be that effective, really. While you might be able to sweep the opponent off one (maybe two) objectives, I don't think it'd be any worse then marines holding 2-3 THawks full of Terminators off-field until turn 3 to hammer one or two items off an objective. You might be able to pull it off, but I'd expect a crafty opponent to use Scout ZoC to prevent you from teleporting close enough to contest/control objectives and force you to fight him off them (Which is likely to mean that you'll get 1, maybe 2 objectives and BTS, while he likely has Blitz and Take and Hold). It's possible to win that way, but I wouldn't expect it to be very effective most of the time (Now, when Obelisks still had Scout, then you could just do absolutely rude things with their teleportation. But that's been fixed.)
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:33 pm 
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Non-Fearless Monoliths would be a HUGE difference.  Given the size of the Monolith formations, even with Obelisks, that's a major cut in durability.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:42 pm 
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I'm strenuously against non-fearless monoliths.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:41 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Feb. 05 2008,13:33)
QUOTE
Non-Fearless Monoliths would be a HUGE difference. ?Given the size of the Monolith formations, even with Obelisks, that's a major cut in durability.

Having non-fearless Monoliths would be the kiss of death to Necron army effectiveness... so, let's give it a try!  *LAUGH*

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:51 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 05 2008,08:42)
QUOTE
I'm strenuously against non-fearless monoliths.

Well don't pull anything!  It's just an army list. :p

What about something like...

Monolith - 100 points
+0-2 Monoliths - +75 points each
+0-3 Obelisks - +50 points each


Better yet,
Monolith -125 points
+0-2 Monoliths - 65 points each
+0-3 Obelisks - +35 points each

Neal/Corey/all,

I have been back and forth on this subject a lot and I am beginning to think it is the most viable idea.

Looking over the Necron list the biggest complaints are the following and how I think a point change will help:

1) Too many activations / Monolith popcorn list. Whether you support this as a problem or not it most certainly is the biggest perceived problem.  

People who think over-activating is a problem should find a solution in changing the price of the monolith.  100 points per monolith would certainly help since it would reduce the raw amount of points available to make the popcorn list.  Personally I think 125 points would even be better!  You may think I'm insane but hear (read?) me out... The Necron player needs Monoliths in some capacity for their game - they are the staple unit even above the Phalanx.  Protecting them with either other Monoliths or Obelisks will most certainly be a natural tendency which will reduce activations.  Besides, the Monolith is incredibly useful so the points wouldn't be too far of a reach.

For people who think that the popcorn army can be defeated easily, this solution will have little bearing on your style of play.  If you increase the value of the Monolith and decrease the cost of its support you end up with an formation cost that is close (or the same) to what you've always played.

It has been argued that this will result in MORE popcorn style play but I would highly disagree that it could be done given a cost of 125 per Monolith.  That combined with the auto-rally removal and few players will want to risk their easily-broken lone monoliths sitting off board on turn 3 (or 4).

2) The Necron army limits a player's choice in tactics / opponent's tactics. I agree that the Necron army is limiting in some capacity, mainly to the opponent.  The Necron player can play differently, but why would he?

By limiting the popcorn army tactic (via point change) you are limiting the Necron player's ability to do the in-your-face turn 1 attack.  The Necron position will have to be one of overlapping support and surrounding half your enemy's line will be a much more risky ordeal.  If you wanted to do a turn 1 teleport attack you would probably have to take up a more defensive position in order to protect your assets in the event of an activation failure, broken formation, etc.

So what alternatives are left to the Necron?  Neal brought up one such example above.  Use of Warbarques will certainly increase and give some tactical flexibility.  But regardless the Necrons will have a more difficult time winning (.i.e. become more balanced) which is what we are trying to achieve here.

I think this point change combined with the Destroyer changes will most certainly help make the Necron army less of a slam-your-opponent type of situation.  It also addresses people's concerns about the Monolith without changing the special rules or stats (an appealing quality for a list at this stage).

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Niblebitzer
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:09 am 
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I like Moscs suggestion and reasoning.
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rpr
 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:10 am 
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About Obelisks: Isn't 35 points a bit cheap for something which has, when compared to say Gunwagon,
+RA, +1 to-hit, TRA, teleport, fearless and skimmer (but no transport)

You could say that it is taken into account in cost of basic Monolith, but it is still quite cheap..  
I would go for combination of E&C and Moscovian: 125 for monolith, 75 for extra monolith, 50 for obelisk.
(this would price the overall portal technology use for 50)

(this would of course include that Monolith would have no more than +2 EA.. skimmer plus those rules? what were they thinking...)
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