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Necrons v4.4 thoughts

 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:39 am 
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(nealhunt @ Feb. 02 2008,17:26)
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(corey3750 @ Feb. 01 2008,15:38)
QUOTE
If you guys can show me that multiple Monolith formations aren't going to result in the most murderous assault unit in history, go for it.

3 Monoliths ~225 points
Phalanx w/ Pariah ~300 points

vs.

Storm Serpent ~250 points
Aspect host w/ Exarchs ~350


Assuming max targets for the Monoliths...
3x7 @ 5+FF = 7 hits
6+1 (Necrons/Lord) ?@ 4+FF = 3.5 hits
1 @ 3+FF = .67

Total - 11.17 hits, plus Inspiring


3x 4+FF = 1.5 hits
6x 2x4+FF (6 DAs) = 7 hits
2x 2x3+FF (2 DRs w/ Exarchs) = 2.67 hits

Total - 11.17 hits, plus 2x Inspiring

===

Obviously, there are a LOT of extraneous factors in that - who can move where, support versus directly involved, won/lost strategy, ranged fire options, Farsight triple activations v multiple portals, and so on. ?Both Eldar and Necrons have some very unique abilities with a lot of impact on assaults.

However, the point is that 3 Monoliths in a formation is not completely ridiculous as far as a concept to test.

Thanks for the mathmatical breakdown Neal!

:D

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:13 pm 
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Y'know what? I'm actually starting to think that maybe the range on pylons is a little extreme.

Sure, the range in 40k is 120", but that doesn't neccesarily translate to 120cm in epic...

Perhaps a more measly 90cm would be worth trying out? The loss of range wouldn't bother me much, and would do much to calm the naysayers.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:07 pm 
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There is precedence for this with the Shadowsword.

Both in Imperial Armour 1 and Apocalypse the Volcano Cannon has a range of 120" but in Epic it fires 90cm instead of 120cm.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:54 pm 
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75cm would be justifed, too.
Because the Hydras range is decreased from 75cm (as it should be) to 45cm because it can fire both at aircraft and ground targets.

Other justification for this: The Pylon, as the Hydra and the wing mounted Twin Heavy Bolters of the Thunderhawk, have a firing arc of greater than 90?. Thus their range is decreased by 15cm.
They Hydras Lb Autocannons range is decreased by a further 15cm because it is a ground unit and can simultaneously fire at Aircraft and ground units.

You will note that the prow mounted Twin Heavy Bolters of the Thunderhawk have 30cm range which is the original range of Heavy Bolters but only have Fixed Forward Arc.





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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:29 pm 
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Is the Cap of fighters to be lowered to 75cm too?

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:24 am 
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(corey3750 @ Feb. 02 2008,21:29)
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Is the Cap of fighters to be lowered to 75cm too?

You really must be kidding. I want those mushrooms too.

About pylons...
Pylon is ridiculously powerful. Its not really about range or to hit or number of hits. Its about TK(D3). Fighter squadrons wont actually care less, if one is shot down by two pylons per round but transports, vampire, thawks and landas, those that actually cost something(with their passengers) are downed as easily. That is the real problem.

Many armies relay on having one or two strong air assaults as its more difficult to achieve it on land. For example orcs, warbands wont do many assaults, they just create pressure, KoS assaults but hey, they wont come in landas. Marines have bikes and assault marines but crappy unit sizes so you really need to work for a effective assault. Eldars have Wportal and Stormserpent of 'sneaky assaults' to bring their units on targets, so they can live wo vampires, thou vampires are still better than serpents. Pylons create too high risk to air assaults and it breaks game. Many games are lost straight if air assault ends up crashing on the ground and then rest of the game is just plain struggling. It is really lame to say that you can deploy those units normally. You opponent just lost 200pts or more spent on aircraft transports before game even started because its too dangerous to bring it on table. It also screws his plans as well. It limits opponents tactics way too much.

Defending Pylons with their pricetag and chitchat about break them first so that you can fly safely can be as well ignored as well. Usually you present your armies before game starts so you know if your opponent is going to field much aircrafts or air transports and you surely can say if any of his units is coming by air. At same time you can see table and possible lines of fire so you dont need to teleport pylons on opponents doorstep for a decent area coverage. If I knew beforehand that my opponent would field 2 thawks, I could safely deploy/teleport pylons within 15cm from my table edge behind something that cant be seen through. There you shut effectively opponents thaws off from game. Thats 400pts for 400pts off game and its pretty well done. Two pylons dropping thawk with ~60% chance is too much and any sane opponent wont take those odds so that they would take any troops on board.

Chromas battlereps wont introduce any air forces that could be taken seriously so its useless to point those on this subject.

About necrons generally...
I have been following this convensation for a long time and yes, I have played against necrons and yes, I have have followed games where necrons crush their opponents on first turn. I dont do that regulary so I am in minority to speak against necrons but I still do. Necrons can be beaten and their assaults can be prevented with decent success, BUT it usually needs beforehand information that you are going to face necrons. You cant just take your regular _balanced_ army and go for 50/50 odds for victory. Thats something that I cannot agree with. I have allways thought that necrons are overpowered and I still do. Teleports, autorally and safe assaults from monoliths should be costed properly.


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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:30 am 
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I've not been shown a single game (with well played opposition) where the pylon made one whit of difference.

There are plenty of other ways to get your troops on the field of you are foolishly afraid of a pylon.  You shouldn' t be.  But that's your personal blast-marker, not mine.

You're right, if you take your normal armylist into a fight with the necron, and play them like you would against other armies, you will lose.  You cannot fight them with the same set up and strategy as you do a normal army.  If you do, you've lost before the game has even begun.  That battlereport that Crawbol put  up for example.  I only needed to look at the intial deployment show in the picture and knew it was game over.  If you split your army up all over the place you've lost unless you have shockingly good luck.  It's about as smart as splitting your army up in the face of a terminator only army.

I've only ever lost 1 game playing against the Necron, and that was soley because I misjudged distances and went for a double move when I should have marched.  I slaughtered the Necrons in combat with few losses.  This was done with an army list I usually play in tournaments.

So if you take your normal army into battle, use proper strategy you can win too.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:35 am 
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(Niblebitzer @ Feb. 02 2008,23:24)
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Chromas battlereps wont introduce any air forces that could be taken seriously so its useless to point those on this subject.

Actually, what my batreps show is how *quickly* Pylons can be nullified, with minimal effort.

And, "auto-rally" is gone from Necrons now.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:36 am 
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(corey3750 @ Feb. 03 2008,03:30)
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This was done with an army list I usually play in tournaments.

You wanna post that army, chief?   :D

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:08 am 
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I played a couple of games with the necrons yesterday, and to be honest, I'm once again concerned about the list still being pretty overpowered.

I played two games, against Tau and Eldar, and in both cases my opponents gave up after one turn.

I normally play with a deliberately poor necron list, with one pylon, no supreme commander (SR 1), an abbatoir and only 4 monoliths. I was challenged yesterday to try to break the list, so I cam up with the following. Apologies if this is slightly off, I'm working from memory...

phalanx   (BTS)
pariah
immortal
tomb spider x2
wraith

phalanx
pariah
tomb spider

phalanx

2 x pylon

5 x monolith

Warbarque (Supreme Commander)

Obelisk recon

destroyers x 5
heavy destroyer
lord

3000 points, 13 activations.

Frankly, it was just way too easy for me to slaughter my opponents. They were both very experienced players who have played many times against necrons. I just had too many activations, allowing me to draw out all their activations before bringing my phalanxes onto the board.

The eldar player bunkered up behind a line of overwatching scouts, as you expect, but they were simply swept aside by the decent shooting in the list (warbarque, destroyers, obelisks, pylons). He made a couple of mistakes later on in the turn, but I did find it incredibly difficult to think of anything he could have done to save himself.

As I said before, with a maxed out list it was way too easy.

The problem seemed to stem from a few places. Firstly, phalanxes are too cheap. They're 75 points less than a tactical marine formation, and sure they have much worse shooting and close combat, but they also have the necron rule and the ability to come through portals. The ability to use portals needs to be costed higher.

Secondly, the sheer number of activations that is possible by using lone monoliths is sick. Corey, I know you think the most effective way to use monoliths is with obelisk escorts, but it really isn't. Individual cheap as chips monoliths give a 60cm range around them that can be engaged out of (30cm monolith double move, 15 cm engage move, 15cm firefight range), and by having them individually you can spread them out to cover almost the entire board. Either monoliths need to go up in price or a total rethink is needed on how they work.

I think formations of 3 monoliths with a much more limited flux arc is the way to go. Either reduce the number of shots to a fixed +3 or a reduce firefight to 6+ and have formations of 3, forcing monoliths to be in one place and one activation, rather than 3 seperate disposable activation which can spread out leaving the enemy with nowhere to run to.

Oddly, the reason we tried the eldar game was to test out the brokenness of pylons, which actually were in no way an issue, managing to only shoot down one fighter before they were broken by the other planes.

Soemthing really does need to be done, and soon, since my gaming group are getting fed up with playing against the list in its current form.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:59 pm 
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Zombo, in your opinion (and the opinion of your opponents) what is more of a threat: the activations or the monoliths themselves? ?Three Monoliths at (+3 extra attacks) will have 12 x 5+ FF. ?If players can tolerate that type of firepower in exchange for the reduction in activations then I'd be in support of it. ?Price it at 250 points for the formation?

EDIT - I think even (+2 extra attacks each) would work = 9 x FF 5+ for 250 points.

Another question: do you see the Obelisks being allowed as an upgrade still to the Monolith Triad?





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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:47 pm 
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Moscovian - It was the number of activations more than anything else that they were complaining about, and they also suggested multi-monolith formations. Reducing their firepower is just a neccessity to stop it being the assault formation of doom.

As for obelisk support, I'm not really sure.

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 Post subject: Necrons v4.4 thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:20 pm 
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Okay then.  3 attacks (+2 EA) seems like the most logical place to start then.  3 1/2 attacks is the average of a D6 attacks and erring on the side of caution is best.  I still think protecting them with Obelisks will be a good idea (0-3 Obelisks) at 50 points each.

If it means getting this list close to balanced by the end of the month I'll try it out.

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