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Assault Detachment Upgrades? |
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CAL001
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Post subject: Assault Detachment Upgrades?  Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:57 pm |
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 1927
Location: Australia
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Ok, having posted on rules review 2008, Mark indicated to start threads elsewhere with links back to that thread.
So I have never quite got this one so I thought I would ask. Why do Assault Marines get a Vindicator as an option? They can't keep up with the Marines in the advance if you start the Marines on the table. You can add them to an Assault formation mounted in a Landing Craft, leaving the remaining space empty or add another formation to the LC, seems very expensive and akin to putting all your eggs in one basket.
So why are they an option? Does anyone actually use them at all in their list? I have certainly never used Vindicators as an upgrade for them.
My other question would then be, as Vindicators are Heavy Support, why are they not an option for Devastator Detachments, would be a nice addition to Devastators in Land Raiders.
So what then do you give Assault Detachments as an upgrade? Do you leave them with Commanders only? Do you allow them Land Speeders?
Not stirring the pot to much, I just don?t see the point in the upgrade and think it should be looked at.
Cheers
Aaron
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BlackLegion
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Post subject: Assault Detachment Upgrades? Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:20 pm |
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
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I wondered about this too. From a fluff point of view the Vindocators can be used to soften the enemy up before the Assault Marines chop them up in CC.
But i would use a different detachment for this.
_________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
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CAL001
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Post subject: Assault Detachment Upgrades? Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:43 pm |
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:54 am
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Location: Australia
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Ok, so we always talk about balance and what it is, so is this balanced against other Core list. I had a look and was hard pressed to find a comparison unit with the ability to upgrade. So here goes:
Guard - Nothing
Orks - Stormboyz - have upgrades capable of matching speed with them
Eldar - Nothing
Black Legion - Nothing
Lost & Damned - Nothing
Tau - Crisis Suits can take any upgrade allowing them to take similar speed items
? ? ? - Stealth Suits can take additional Stealth Suits, Gun Drones and Sniper Drones with similar speeds again.
So there doesnt appear to be a comon theme throughout the armies on this. Some armies have no like unit with a similar upgrade. Some have a similar unit with upgrades that are capable of adding to the capability of the formation.
So what benefit does a Marine player have by taking this option. As I said the only real way to use it is to mount it in a Landing Craft. So I had a look, saw how many eggs I could fit in the basket. I ended up with this;
Landing Craft =375
Assault Det = 175
+ Chaplain = 50
+ 2 x Vindicator = 150
(left me with 8 Tpt spots and 4 Vehicle spots to fill)
Devasator Det 250
+ Librarian = 50
+ 2 x Ranged Dreadnaughts = 100
Predator Det = 275
A grand total of 1425, some coupe de grace hey.
Ok so why do they get the Vindicator? Surely Land Speeders area better option at 0-2 any type. And have the Vindicator as an option for Devastators. I think that the upgrade is based more so on fluff than any real practical reason.
Cheers
Aaron
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CAL001
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Post subject: Assault Detachment Upgrades? Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:49 pm |
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 1927
Location: Australia
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Come on you big guns come out and play, I am most interested inhearing what you have to say on this, Mark, Neal give me your two cents worth, well maybe a bit more than that.
Aaron
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Shadowsword
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Post subject: Assault Detachment Upgrades? Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:50 am |
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:51 am
Posts: 61
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My guess is that the combination of Assault marines with Vindicators is from the Epic 40k Editions, there it was a good combination, because Assaults were slower (when used without Rhinos) and the Vindicator was an Assault tank with good close combat ranged support. The Epic 40k vindicator would have +1 FF extra attack (perhaps with ignore cover) if translated to Epic Armageddon.
There was lots of discussion to change the vindicator also in this direction, but is was not done, because of the physics of the vehicle (without a gun turret the tank can't be used in assault, only as artillery). We were now left with a shouting vehicle. I guess that they just forget to drop it out from the Assault upgrades during rules revision.
There was also a thought to drop Assault formation points to 150, which I use. (I'd like the landspeeder upgrade)
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