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Basing, pinning and firing

scream

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:41 pm

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Location: France

last game we discussed that the squat praetorian behemoth could use his heavy bolters as PD?!

Pretorians always fire in FF segment but its heavy-bolters are not PDs.

a)
the behemoth was attacked in cc by vypers. if his heavy bolters are PD, he can first be activated in the ff segment to use his main weapons to shoot at other units while ignoring the vypers and can be activated a second time beforte cc to use his heavy bolters (if PD) to shoot the vypers.

When vypers reached the Behemoth, Squats player has to say if he wants to snap fire the incoming vypers. As the pretorian is always on FF, it can do it and do not suffer -1 penalty for snap fire (engaged in CC). Snap fire is resolved immediatly, not in the FF segment.

b)
to the discussion above:
a superheavy tak, attacked by infantrie, can shoot at other units while ignoring the infantrie but shoot pd at them before cc?

Yes they can ignore infantery but can use PD for snap firing infantery stands. It will be able to do its standard shoot on onther units as it's 2 class above.

c)
but if he is attacked by cavalry, he is actually not pinned, but must set his focus on the attacking vypers and can not shoot at other units but his whole weapons incl. PD at the vypers before cc?

SuperHeavy tanks are 2 class above cavalry stands so they can shoot units ignoring cavalry basing them.

Hope it helps. I think the main point you maybe missed is the Snap Fire on units engaging you in Close Combat.

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darkangel

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:53 pm

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(scream @ Jan. 16 2008,15:41)

QUOTE

last game we discussed that the squat praetorian behemoth could use his heavy bolters as PD?!

When vypers reached the Behemoth, Squats player has to say if he wants to snap fire the incoming vypers. As the pretorian is always on FF, it can do it and do not suffer -1 penalty for snap fire (engaged in CC). Snap fire is resolved immediatly, not in the FF segment.

b)
to the discussion above:
a superheavy tak, attacked by infantrie, can shoot at other units while ignoring the infantrie but shoot pd at them before cc?

Yes they can ignore infantery but can use PD for snap firing ? infantery stands. It will be able to do its standard shoot on onther units as it's 2 class above.

c)
but if he is attacked by cavalry, he is actually not pinned, but must set his focus on the attacking vypers and can not shoot at other units but his whole weapons incl. PD at the vypers before cc?

SuperHeavy tanks are 2 class above cavalry stands so they can shoot units ignoring cavalry basing them.

Hope it helps. I think the main point you maybe missed is the Snap Fire on units engaging you in Close Combat.
so you have to attack the superheavy in cc with at least a rhino, if want that the superheavy can not shoot at other units, right?

so if the behemoth is attackeds by vypers, he can shoot his heavy bolters snap fire without penalty, but what about his main weapons? because if you snap fire, you can just shoot at the incomming units but not at other, right?

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darkangel

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:05 pm

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(scream @ Jan. 16 2008,15:41)

QUOTE

so what is the differnce between the heavy bolters of the behemoth and the pd of the leviathan?

so a preatorian can shoot snap fire even if he s moved before? so does the overloard too?

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scream

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:10 pm

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Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:18 pm
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so you have to attack the superheavy in cc with at least a rhino, if want that the superheavy can not shoot at other units, right?

Yes, that's what the new rule says.

so if the behemoth is attackeds by vypers, he can shoot his heavy bolters snap fire without penalty, but what about his main weapons? because if you snap fire, you can just shoot at the incomming units but not at other, right?

If could also use it's main weapon for snap firing the vypers. But if the Behemot player decide just to use only the HB for snap firing, it could use its main weapon to target another unit in the FF segment or Snap Fire a unit not engaging it (with -1 penalty).

The Snap Fire Rule from Gold Rule Book:

Special Rule: Snap Fire
Units that are on First Fire Orders may fire at targets of opportunity.
When an enemy detachment is activated and moves into sight, you may interrupt its movement at any point and activate one of your units that has First Fire Orders. Your unit fires at the activated enemy unit with a ?1 To-Hit penalty. Casualties are removed and the enemy may continue movement. Snap Fire may interrupt any units that move, including one performing Pop-Up or Fire-on-the-Fly maneuvers.
Titan weapons that Snap Fire do not cause the Titan to count as having fired ? the Titan may move and fire other weapons normally. Command units that Snap Fire are not allowed to move later in the turn, nor are Command units allowed to Snap Fire after they have moved. You may not Snap Fire with template weapons or any unit classified as artillery.
You may not fire at any target other than the activated enemy unit, and your entire detachment counts as having fired this turn. If you Snap Fire at a unit that is moving to engage you in Close Combat, you do not suffer the ?1 To-Hit penalty.

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scream

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:16 pm

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so what is the differnce between the heavy bolters of the behemoth and the pd of the leviathan?

They act quite the same way as praetorian are always considered on FF. But Pds have special rule and all Pds are 15cm 6+ 0. HB profiles are not the same on all vehicules.

so a preatorian can shoot snap fire even if he s moved before? so does the overloard too?
Yes and Yes, both are always considered as being on FF.

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darkangel

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:45 pm

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(scream @ Jan. 16 2008,16:16)

QUOTE

so just units or weapons which are described as "always on ff" are able to fire snap fire even if they have moved before, right?

a titan who has moved before (he has a HQ head) can not snap fire, right? because he has not the description "always on ff"?

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scream

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:58 pm

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Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:18 pm
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so just units or weapons which are described as "always on ff" are able to fire snap fire even if they have moved before, right?

Both (titans weapons always on FF and Pds)

a titan who has moved before (he has a HQ head) can not snap fire, right? because he has not the description "always on ff
The Command head do not give to the titan the "always FF" ability...So if the titan is not on FF it can not Snap Fire, except with its weapons that are "always on FF" like Carapace Multi-Laser or Cerberus AA Gun.

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darkangel

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:03 pm

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(scream @ Jan. 16 2008,16:58)

QUOTE

so just units or weapons which are described as "always on ff" are able to fire snap fire even if they have moved before, right?

Both (titans weapons always on FF and Pds)

a titan who has moved before (he has a HQ head) can not snap fire, right? because he has not the description "always on ff

The Command head do not give to the titan the "always FF" ability...So if the titan is not on FF it can not Snap Fire, except with its weapons that are "always on FF" like Carapace Multi-Laser or Cerberus AA Gun.
i do not understand...a hq unit can move advance range but shoot ff, right? so a titan with hq head can ove u to 15 cm and fire in ff, right?

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scream

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:29 pm

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(darkangel @ Jan. 16 2008,18:03)

QUOTE

i do not understand...a hq unit can move advance range but shoot ff, right? so a titan with hq head can ove u to 15 cm and fire in ff, right?

No...a titan with Command Head (not HQ Head) extends IG command radius to 35cm (like Leviathan) and the titan can give orders to SHQ like CHQ would do. This absolutely does not transform the titan into a Command stand with HQ protection, orders etc... A titan with Command head will still need to have orders and on advance order will shoot in Advance Fire segment.

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darkangel

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:35 pm

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(scream @ Jan. 16 2008,18:29)

QUOTE

(darkangel @ Jan. 16 2008,18:03)

QUOTE

i do not understand...a hq unit can move advance range but shoot ff, right? so a titan with hq head can ove u to 15 cm and fire in ff, right?

No...a titan with Command Head (not HQ Head) extends ?IG command radius to 35cm (like Leviathan) and the titan can give orders to SHQ like CHQ would do. This absolutely does not transform the titan into a Command stand with HQ protection, orders etc... A titan with Command head will still need to have orders and on advance order will shoot in Advance Fire segment.

then i do not need this laughable head. a head of this kind would only be meaningfull with command ability. who needs 35 cm hq radius. but ok, another thing i can watch in my glass cabinet...but not in battle...a head variant absolutly useless. but i am sure that someonei will give me an answer how important it could be if you get this fabulous radius of 35 cm hq radius...sorry

now i feel better...

suggestion: increase the cost to 50 points with command ability...instead of this we should give him the name hq head ad not command head!!!!

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:48 pm

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(darkangel @ Jan. 16 2008,16:35)

QUOTE

I don't know about you, but sometimes I use variant heads just because they look cool, even if they have no effect on game play. If you don't want the head, you can always give it to me. :;):

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primarch

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:46 pm

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

(darkangel @ Jan. 16 2008,16:35)

QUOTE

(scream @ Jan. 16 2008,18:29)

QUOTE

(darkangel @ Jan. 16 2008,18:03)

QUOTE

i do not understand...a hq unit can move advance range but shoot ff, right? so a titan with hq head can ove u to 15 cm and fire in ff, right?

now i feel better...

suggestion: increase the cost to 50 points with command ability...instead of this we should give him the name hq head ad not command head!!!!

Hi!

This head only has value when you play and IG army. It has no value for any other value.

However for an IG it has a very big advantage since you have an extra IG command to determine command radius, thus markedly reduce the probability of being out of command and suffering those penalties.

Of course, many suggestions for alternate rules were given, but maybe too good or unbalancing for general use.

Making a titan a "command unit" is waay to good.

Primarch

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zap123

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:11 am

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Yeah....that head variant would be about 350 points

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yogozuno

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:43 am

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50pts to give even a warhound titan command seems a little over the top...as a Guard player, though, I can definitely see some uses for the Command Head

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scream

Post subject: Basing, pinning and firing

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:09 am

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Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:18 pm
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I don't think a warhound can take a command head, only a warlord can take one (at least in the 5.1 Adeptus Mechanicus Codex available in the ML).

Another advantage for this head is not only the 35cm command radius but the titan with this head can give orders to SHQ like CHQ would do.

It's clearly a IG titan oriented head and I don't think it needs any modification.

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