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robot statistics...
yogozuno
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:37 pm 
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Clearly, different groups play differently...CAF and assaults have often been the deciding factors in the games I have played...firepower is great, but not all-powerful.

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darkangel
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:45 pm 
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(yogozuno @ Jan. 03 2008,12:37)
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Clearly, different groups play differently...CAF and assaults have often been the deciding factors in the games I have played...firepower is great, but not all-powerful.

you will tell me that you move in cc wth dreadnougts? in which round?..15?...and if i really want to cc an enemy, then i use real cc units like assault trops with gunships to bring them close. but fact is the deredeo and furibundus have the same stats except that the deredeo has a better caf and the furibundus a better tsm...and you can not tell me that in this case you can compare the caf with the tsm, because you get more vp by shooting with the furibundus then cc with the deredeo...our slauthers are based on firepower..titans, heavy tanks, long ranged weapons with high tsm to have the possibility to make maximum damage in round one!!!...there will be no round 15, in which i can do cc with this deredeo...
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yogozuno
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:57 pm 
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Woah, calm down, budd! I never said that I'm assaulting with dreads, or that you should...all I said was that where I play, CAF is at least as important as firepower, in the general case. This was in response to you saying...

i do not know, how you play epic, but in our game it is important to have much firepower! so you can not compare a higher caf with a lower tsm or vice versa.

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darkangel
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:16 pm 
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(yogozuno @ Jan. 03 2008,12:57)
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Woah, calm down, budd! I never said that I'm assaulting with dreads, or that you should...all I said was that where I play, CAF is at least as important as firepower, in the general case. This was in response to you saying...

i do not know, how you play epic, but in our game it is important to have much firepower! so you can not compare a higher caf with a lower tsm or vice versa.

sorry, was not mean so...i was just so deep in topic... :D

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yogozuno
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:42 pm 
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To clarify a bit - not only do different people play differently, but different armies play differently too. Although you may never plan to assault with dreads or robots, that doesn't mean you won't have an Ork or Tyranid player in your face from turn 1 or 2. In that case, the CAF would become relatively worth more.

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darkangel
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:24 pm 
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(yogozuno @ Jan. 03 2008,13:42)
QUOTE
To clarify a bit - not only do different people play differently, but different armies play differently too. Although you may never plan to assault with dreads or robots, that doesn't mean you won't have an Ork or Tyranid player in your face from turn 1 or 2. In that case, the CAF would become relatively worth more.

but if i play agains tyranids, then i take the furibundus too, to shoot them before cc AND i have the chance to destroy titans and heavy tanks! and do not really have with deredeos.

the deredeos is a needless unit and the 3rd variant too...they will never be part of my army until there are rules which give me the chance of a tactical dicission. but i do not care about a high caf of a dread.

dicissions for dreads were:
1 attack dice 5+ tsm -2 or
2 atack dice 5+ tsm -1 or
3 attack dice 5+ (50cm) tsm-1

and you can give them a caf of -3 or whatever!
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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:36 pm 
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(darkangel @ Jan. 03 2008,11:24)
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but i do not care about a high caf of a dread.

However, some people, like me, do care about the CAF a Dread has.

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darkangel
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:53 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Jan. 03 2008,16:36)
QUOTE

(darkangel @ Jan. 03 2008,11:24)
QUOTE
but i do not care about a high caf of a dread.

However, some people, like me, do care about the CAF a Dread has.

of course!...but if cc is it worth to find attention by choosing an army then we play another game then the rest here...no army consisting of most cc staff could win our game!
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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:04 pm 
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(darkangel @ Jan. 03 2008,12:53)
QUOTE

(Dwarf Supreme @ Jan. 03 2008,16:36)
QUOTE

(darkangel @ Jan. 03 2008,11:24)
QUOTE
but i do not care about a high caf of a dread.

However, some people, like me, do care about the CAF a Dread has.

of course!...but if cc is it worth to find attention by choosing an army then we play another game then the rest here...no army consisting of most cc staff could win our game!

That may be, but when comparing stats you really need to consider all of them. Just because you play a certain way doesn't mean the point cost for a detachment is necessarily off.

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darkangel
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:56 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Jan. 03 2008,18:04)
QUOTE

(darkangel @ Jan. 03 2008,12:53)
QUOTE

(Dwarf Supreme @ Jan. 03 2008,16:36)
QUOTE

(darkangel @ Jan. 03 2008,11:24)
QUOTE
but i do not care about a high caf of a dread.

However, some people, like me, do care about the CAF a Dread has.

of course!...but if cc is it worth to find attention by choosing an army then we play another game then the rest here...no army consisting of most cc staff could win our game!

That may be, but when comparing stats you really need to consider all of them. Just because you play a certain way doesn't mean the point cost for a detachment is necessarily off.

you are right, but when you say 150 is ok for robots, then you have to increase the cost from the furibundus to 150 too. but when you do this, you have to talk about all the units which actually cost 150 points..may be you have to increase them too and so on...
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zap123
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:32 pm 
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OK....will you stop trying to make a point comparison between every unit in the game...particularly while at the same time conveniently ignoring important components of a units abilities that make up those costs!  For the way you play a 150 point unit of Robots is not worth it.....fine, dont take them!  As Yogozuno has pointed out, where we play CAF is pretty darned important and IMO Quickdraw is about the second most powerful ability around.

There are absolutely hordes of units in NetEpic that are to me clearly inferior to another similarly costed unit.  So, do we get rid of Cobras and Scorpions and Vindicators and Leman Rus and Stormblades and Giblet Grinders and Wartracks and Whirlwinds and Haruspexi?  You can either min-max and never take the weaker units....or you can build armies that embrace the second tier and have fun.  It is much more satisfying winning a battle when you took a B team against your opponents A team......and gives you a handy excuse if he kicks your arse :D

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darkangel
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:55 pm 
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(zap123 @ Jan. 05 2008,14:32)
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OK....will you stop trying to make a point comparison between every unit in the game...particularly while at the same time conveniently ignoring important components of a units abilities that make up those costs! ?For the way you play a 150 point unit of Robots is not worth it.....fine, dont take them! ?As Yogozuno has pointed out, where we play CAF is pretty darned important and IMO Quickdraw is about the second most powerful ability around.

There are absolutely hordes of units in NetEpic that are to me clearly inferior to another similarly costed unit. ?So, do we get rid of Cobras and Scorpions and Vindicators and Leman Rus and Stormblades and Giblet Grinders and Wartracks and Whirlwinds and Haruspexi? ?You can either min-max and never take the weaker units....or you can build armies that embrace the second tier and have fun. ?It is much more satisfying winning a battle when you took a B team against your opponents A team......and gives you a handy excuse if he kicks your arse :D

i talked to our ig and squat player, and because 3 armies can take robots we decided that they cost 100 points furthermore, but the squat robots have the same stats like the ig and sm list!

we all have the same opinion in our group, that caf is good, but you can not win a game with same points caf units. 3.000 points fire against 6.000 caf could be a comparison, but nothing else. it is like in real lfe. if i have a gun there must be dobble oponents with knifes to have a chance...but i think we just play the game not the way having fun but beeing the winner in the end and that is fun too...so you need armour, firepower, and long weapon range...
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yogozuno
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:48 pm 
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Darkangel, this isn't really the place for this continuing discussion, but...I played a game again last night that was almost totally decided with assaults! I don't know exactly what you fellas are doing differently, but I suspect that a competent assaulter (depending on the army he took) might be kicking you guys around...

As for points costs, my biggest complaint at the moment wouldn't be with robots - it'd be with Mechanised Guard units. A Mechanised Guard Company has the same cost as a Tactical company, virtually the same numbers of units (the guard company has a commisar + transport). Yet, in almost all other ways, the Marines have either the same or better stats, and play less restrictively (i.e. they don't have to worry about command radius). Chimeras have +1 CAF and a slightly better weapon over rhinos, but the marines have a 5+ save and much better CAF...

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zap123
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:17 am 
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The Guard were never really meant to be mechanised...think WW2 Russian infantry division :)




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darkangel
 Post subject: robot statistics...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:44 pm 
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(zap123 @ Jan. 06 2008,09:17)
QUOTE

so what about the marines and guards robots finally?

150 points, break of 4, and keep the stats?

150 points are too much and the same for sentinel...

remember, that you get 4 dreadnoughts for 100 and if you take 11th company from the desert lions, you futhermore pay 100 points for robots...so why to increase the cost to 150 points?

and hones..5 sentnel for 150 points???...now my 30 sentnel are well painted but just look good in the glass cabinet but not on the battlefield...
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