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Plasma Weapons
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:22 am 
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The biggest variation in lists seems to be around plasma weapons. For those with short memories these are:

Plasma Blastgun (Warhound) 45cm, 2xMW2+, Slow Fire
Plasma Cannon
Plasma Destructor

Style wise what should these be? Concensus is that they are slow fire weapons, this I suspect is unlikely to change.

Slow fire weapons aim to fire turns 1 and 3, risk 2 and 4 and often you get half your firepower as the game can end turn 3.

Also having a weapon system offline on a titan is a good time to assault - it precludes firing anyway, so why not try and take advantage in this lull in your fire?

To that end weapons that give you a good chance of hitting as you close to assault range are great - as this often means doubling to hit you need high values. 3x3+ is better than 4x4+.

The alternate weapon config is for sustained fire, so lots of shots with lower to hit values - 6x5+ instead of 3x3+. here the +1 to hit means more damage. However now your 'off' turn is unlikely to be spent in assault.

The Warhound weapon is clearly a 'doubling' weapon. With a game often lasting three turns and a range of 45cm to use it turn 1 and 3 you often have to double. On the plus side with a 2+ to hit you still have a damn good chance.

So should the others be doubling or sustaining wepaons? Currently the cannon (4x4+) is middle of the road. Should then the destructor continue the trend to Sustain, or reverse and become a doubling gun? Should indeed the cannon be restated to be a sustaining or a 'proper' doubling gun (which probably would give it a boost use wise, so it might not be a straight maths conversion)?

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:09 pm 
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I see all titan weapons, with the exception of indirect BP weapons as advance and doubling weapons.

the main ability of a titan is to advance into the enemy lines the ground constantly shaking under the impact of their feet, whilst enemy fire is effortlessly absorbed by their shields.

They are as much weapons of fear as weapons of war and you get more fear from the thing walking towards the enemy, rather than standing off and blasting them at range.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:46 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 23 2007,07:22)
QUOTE
So should the others be doubling or sustaining wepaons? Currently the cannon (4x4+) is middle of the road. Should then the destructor continue the trend to Sustain, or reverse and become a doubling gun? Should indeed the cannon be restated to be a sustaining or a 'proper' doubling gun (which probably would give it a boost use wise, so it might not be a straight maths conversion)?


I think the "big" Plasma Weapons should *not* be "assault" weapons... ?

The "4+" (and I could even live with 3+) to hit allows one to replicate the need to "divert plasma" to get better hit by giving up movement and sustaining, and the "weakening" of the weapon, getting -1 to hit, when doubling.

Additionally, as in my White Knights rules, I think Plasma Weapons should have the "reserve shots" concept of the Blastgun as a general Titan Plasma weapon rule.

To reiterate, these are the Plasma Weapon stats from the next version of my White Knights list (which I'll be posting after Christmas)

Plasma Weapons

Plasma Blastgun /45cm /2 x MW2+ /Slow Firing, Arm
Plasma Cannon /60cm /4 x MW4+ Slow Firing /Carapace
Plasma Destructor /75cm /4 x MW4+ /Slow Firing, Titan Killer, Carapace

Notes: Plasma Weapons may either fire half their shots and still have half ?in reserve? for next turn, or fire all shots and not shoot next turn at all. Due to the drain on its plasma reactor, a Titan may only mount a maximum of two plasma weapons.[/quote]

More discussion to come after Christmas!

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ortron
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:18 pm 
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Plasma Weapons

Plasma Blastgun /45cm /2 x MW2+ /Slow Firing, Arm
Plasma Cannon /60cm /4 x MW4+ Slow Firing /Carapace
Plasma Destructor /75cm /4 x MW4+ /Slow Firing, Titan Killer, Carapace

Notes: Plasma Weapons may either fire half their shots and still have half ?in reserve? for next turn, or fire all shots and not shoot next turn at all. Due to the drain on its plasma reactor, a Titan may only mount a maximum of two plasma weapons


@ Chroma
Any reason why the big ones should be carapace? after all the latest model warlord mounts its biggest guns in arm mounts.

I'm not sure on the TK(1) for the PD, even though it did hit quite hard in SM/TL era, i think TRC idea of making Plasma weapons a killer of A veh/hvy inf is a good way of differentiating it.

Perhaps you could meet half way, keep your decreased range and TK, but take more shots at a higher to hit number eg 75cm, (5-6)xMW5+, Slow Fire, TK(1).

To be fully effective it has to stay still, but can still be used for slow advances.


I suppose the key things from earlier Titan weapons were that they slowed you down and prevented other weapons firing. I think Slow fire is a good way of showing this in the new system but combined with TRC's idea of more shots but Higher to hit number is a good way of slowing titan speed.

Cheers

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Chroma
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:37 pm 
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(ortron @ Dec. 23 2007,13:18)
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@ Chroma
Any reason why the big ones should be carapace? after all the latest model warlord mounts its biggest guns in arm mounts.

The Carapace mount is just how I did it in my list, mainly because the old Plasma Destructor model didn't seem to have the "arm mount" pin on it, only the carapace one...   I'm flexible, and it was just a cut-n-paste from my revised list.

What do people think of maintaining the "reserve shot" rule for all Plasma weapons?

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ortron
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:40 pm 
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i think the reserve shot is fine personally, and have played it that way before.

The no more than 2 weapons make sense fluff wise but restricts modellers if they have already made some titans with more than 2. Ryza pattern titans etc.. depends how much you want to restrict people.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:01 pm 
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(ortron @ Dec. 23 2007,13:40)
QUOTE
The no more than 2 weapons make sense fluff wise but restricts modellers if they have already made some titans with more than 2. Ryza pattern titans etc.. depends how much you want to restrict people.

Well, get out the fine razor saw... *laugh*

And a Ryza-based Legio might have a "More Plasma!" rule that over-rides the restriction...

Just spit-balling!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:13 pm 
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I'm still in favour of linear scaling for the Plasma weapons, something like:


Plasma Blastgun 45cm, 2xMW2+, Slow Fire
Plasma Cannon 60cm, 3xMW2+, Slow Fire
Plasma Destructor 75cm 4x MW2+, Slow Fire


Whilst allowing shots to be saved in reserve for all weapons.

With these stats, the different Plasma weapons seem related to each other, instead of completely different weapon systems.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:29 pm 
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I think the reserve rule isn't needed, its not as if anyone has ever noted problems with keeping track of whether or not they have fired.

Though your system E&C shows a neat progression it makes the cannon in particular to damn tasty - big boost when doubling and still 25% more firepower when advancing.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:33 pm 
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The reserve rule is there for the plasma blastgun as it's the only multi-shot slow firing weapon in the core rules. I'd assume ANY slow-firing weapon with multiple shots should have that rule by-default, much like you can choose to fire only one of the two plasma cannons on a leman russ demolisher and use the other next turn if you want to.

As for the scaling weapons, there's a few issues with that, including the extreme assault-bias it brings to those weapons. Reaver with one can double forward and get 3 shots at MW 3+ into the enemy deployment zone turn 1, and be in good position to assault turn 2. They'd become the 'defacto' assault-titan non-assault weapons with those stats, essentially. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it's the most likely place I'd see 'em used.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:46 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 23 2007,15:29)
QUOTE
Though your system E&C shows a neat progression it makes the cannon in particular to damn tasty - big boost when doubling and still 25% more firepower when advancing.

I don't think my proposal makes the Cannon any more fearsome than a Turbolaser (Which has four AT3's every turn, instead of 3 shots with slow firing).


Likewise, my Destructor only stacks up to the Volcano Cannon for a single turn, take it to turn two and the Destructor has no shots...


I think these stats are neat, balanced, and characterful (They're clearly related to each other).

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:27 pm 
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It cold be interesting to note that in Wh40k Apocalypse th eonly difference between the Warhound Plasma Blastgun and the Warlords Plasma Annihilator is that the Annihilator has double the number of shots than the Blastgun.

None of them have some kind of slow-firing but two modi of firing. Few shots at higher strength and range or more shots at fewer strength and range.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:18 pm 
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The other problem with your stats E&C is that the guns just flat out better. Unlike say the turbolaser and the vc where you have a choice, one is simply better than the other. If you can get the destructor, why not?

I'd be looking at Reaver with three plasma's, and any spare upgrades making them destructors for even more damage.

Note 3x2+ vs a Turbolaser will over three turns only be better at engaging heavy armour than a turbolaser, but of course be a lot better against AP, free up turn two for an assault and deliver alpha strike damage. Personally I would take it every time over turbolasers for the flexibility and what I've just mentioned.

But would it be fair to sumerise the debate as one of two options? Assault (2+, 3+ etc) vs progressively higher energy requirements (2xMW2+, 4xMW4+, 4xTK5+/6xMW5+/6xTK5+/Xxsomething5+).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:06 pm 
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The other problem with your stats E&C is that the guns just flat out better.


I disagree.


A single plasma cannon would have 6 MW shots per game versus 16 AT shots per game for the turbolaser (Most games run to four turns in my experience, not three as you state, which obviously affects your conclusion)

That's an average of 5 MW hits or ~11 AT hits on advance orders.

Or an average of 4MW hits or 8AT hits when doubling (Which the Titan is likely going to need to do a fair ammount due to its limited speed).


In order to say that my proposed Plasma weapon stat is better you're assuming:

- That the game will only be three turns long
- That the 20cm speed Reaver Titan will get a favourable Engagement oppertunity on turn 2 (Without Marching in turn one, I find that an unlikely possibility)


Over a 4 turn game, a Reaver with three Plasma Cannons that Advances every turn will be able to fire a total of eighteen MW2+ shots, in whatever combination (Either 9-0-9-0 or 4-5-4-5), and that's assuming that you even allow 3 plasma weapons on the same hull (Some proposals don't).

During the same four turn time period, a Reaver with three Turbolasers will fire a total of fourty-eight AT3+ shots.




Three Warhound Titans fitted with two Plasma Blastguns each (750pts as compared to 650pts) will in the mean time put out twenty four(!) MW2+ shots, have three activations instead of one, have the same DC, more shields, and be considerably faster (Only losing 5cm range on Advance, and gaining 5cm extra range when doubling).

Do you take Warhounds only fitted with Plasma weapons too?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Plasma Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:27 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 24 2007,23:06)
QUOTE
A single plasma cannon would have 6 MW shots per game versus 16 AT shots per game for the turbolaser (Most games run to four turns in my experience, not three as you state, which obviously affects your conclusion)

That's an average of 5 MW hits or ~11 AT hits on advance orders.

Or an average of 4MW hits or 8AT hits when doubling (Which the Titan is likely going to need to do a fair amount due to its limited speed).

First off that's just AT - if you happen to need some AP fire you have the wrong load out. Plasma covers both bases.

And I reckon half my games end in 3 turns instead of 4, especially in tournies when time is also a factor.

You neglect the ability to do a lot of damage in one go. Sure over the 4 turns you score more hits with the TLD against AT but the plasma does more damage in one go - a broken formation is better than one reduced by attrition.

So when doubling the plasma will get 2 kills (unless you are facing RA) and the TLD 2 AT hits (1/3 AP hit) modified by armour.

If I can pull off a turn two assault I have used the weapon fit far more effectively - indeed the knowledge I'm after an assault could be used to herd the enemy.

And an assault turn two ain't that hard. That just means that the enemy has to have moved at least 45cm onto the board (and of course be in front of me, but this is for illustrative purposes :) ). I could even place the objectives at the half way point to try and sucker a garrison or two.

Three Warhound Titans fitted with two Plasma Blastguns each (750pts as compared to 650pts) will in the mean time put out twenty four(!) MW2+ shots, have three activations instead of one, have the same DC, more shields, and be considerably faster (Only losing 5cm range on Advance, and gaining 5cm extra range when doubling).

Do you take Warhounds only fitted with Plasma weapons too?


Only in a 'warhound horde' army, otherwise I kit them out for AP work as infantry isn't as dangerous to warhounds.

Note if I get to use a 45cm 4xAT3+ turbolaser as in some proposals I forget the plasma entirely on warhounds!

Note also most lists point individual warhounds as 275 each, so that would be 175 points more and need 3 support slots free.

Oh and I'm not sure I'd want a 75cm range weapon for a warlord, would have to try and bit first and see.



On a total tangent if we get to play krieg vs siege no picking corner to corner deployment!

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