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Rules Review Process 2008
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:58 am 
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AC's developing lists of recommendations,


It's important to note that Jervis changed the role of AC's late in Fanatic's existance... they became full 'developers', not merely collators of info and suggesters of potential changes.

On the subject of splitting core rules and army lists, well that's what Netepic does

I proposed it because that's one of the things E40k did best, IMHO.




The single most important task of the Net:EA project at this time is to start looking at the experimental army lists and vetting them for ascendancy to official status.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:29 am 
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In short I am sick of the mess of development processes and yes I'm forcing the issue (and definitely not just at my own behest either). ...come up with a process that works, because things clearly are not at the moment


I made an explicit warning both privately in emails and publicly on the forums that these problems would occur because we were handling things back asswards.  Any diasagreements, arguments, Epic units shoved up other people's nostrils, will be a direct result of one problem:

NO DEFINED, RECOGNIZED LEADERSHIP.  

The community still needs to decide the WHO's.  Then the WHO's decide the WHATs and the WHENs and the HOWs.  Discussing this in any other order is going to be unproductive and will result in community fractures.  Why do I know that?  Because it has already begun.  The handbook process combined with a lack of official leadership has caused some people to leave the community altogether and several more to threaten to leave.  

Before getting into the contentious discussions about deadlines, review dates, officialdom, et al., we need to put an interim committee in place.  Neal as a committee-of-one will suffice for now, but ultimately an ERC board of three will be necessary.  More than that and you'll get into complications.  Less than that and you are risking losing the entire organization if somebody quits, dies, is disabled, harddrive crashes without backup, etc.

Once the interim committee is set up, he/they decide the time frames, the organizational structure, the appointments or voting or combination thereof, the capacity of ACs.  The committee may want feedback from the community or make decisions on their own or both.  Ultimately they make the decisions and everybody lives with them or moves on.

Now some people like the idea of a popular vote, some people hate it.  Perhaps the permanent committee can be a combination of the two aspects where Neal sits as a permanent member, appoints one person annually, then the third is elected annually.  There are a bunch of structures that would work just fine.

If Jervis/Andy/Sg get off their duffs and do anything, the WHO's will be in place already and can represent the active community and defend the work completed.

So Mark, if you or anyone else is feeling frustrated then this is your fastest, most reliable path to fixing the problem.  Anything else and I will guarantee you will see more fractures.  I'm not setting myself up as a prophet of doom here but everything I said would happen has happened so far, and pretty close to the timeline I gave it.

If anyone disagrees with me I'd be interested to read what you have to write.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:02 am 
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Some of my earlier comments from August...
The decision and the discussions don't worry me nearly as much as what they represent which is a lack of reference to an ultimate authority.  In other words, with no SG oversight and no ERC control. THIS is what will rip apart the Epic community.

And another...
...at some point a committee is going to be needed.  I agree you have done more in a short period of time than the ERC has in a very long one.  [But]WITHOUT a committee or authority of some type, we can easily fragment the community with [ contraversial discussions].  You may think that I am blowing that out of proportion, but remember that all dam breaks start with a single crack.  
And this is after just a couple weeks from the release of Handbook 2008.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:46 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Dec. 22 2007,07:29)
QUOTE
Neal as a committee-of-one will suffice *snip* ...you are risking losing the entire organization if somebody quits, dies, is disabled, harddrive crashes without backup, etc.

He seems fairly invulnerable to be fair.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:15 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 22 2007,11:46)
QUOTE

(Moscovian @ Dec. 22 2007,07:29)
QUOTE
Neal as a committee-of-one will suffice *snip* ...you are risking losing the entire organization if somebody quits, dies, is disabled, harddrive crashes without backup, etc.

He seems fairly invulnerable to be fair.

Great, now you've doomed him...   :D

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:39 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 22 2007,06:46)
QUOTE

(Moscovian @ Dec. 22 2007,07:29)
QUOTE
Neal as a committee-of-one will suffice *snip* ...you are risking losing the entire organization if somebody quits, dies, is disabled, harddrive crashes without backup, etc.

He seems fairly invulnerable to be fair.

Chris, you have a very dry sense of humor. :)

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Niblebitzer
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:06 pm 
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Moscovian has pointed it out quite nicely up there. Warlord mentality can be seen among people here, few stating that they know it best while other opinions are plain wrong. It drives people off and no-one is forced to be here. Game is great even without updates, so...

We need leader or small committee that everybody can trust and believe. It's their job to set deadlines, needed tasks for each deadline and make final decisions. Their job would also include giving design guidelines and limitations to certain attributes like amount of MWs and TKs in armies or strengths of different areas based on fluff/balance.

Deadlines can and must be broken. If committee stated that certain change of rules must be tested with N games, then it is N games, not N-5, N-3 or N-1. If task hasnt been finished in time, then new deadline will be set if there is still time or change dropped from annual(or bi-annual) review. Thats where leadership is needed.

I also find it rather lame to run one week long poll which gains less than 30 votes, on a forum of hundreds of users, and then state that majority has chosen something with difference of 5 votes. Again, we need leader to make final call.
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Dave
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:30 pm 
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Moscovian is speaking a lot of sense here.  Why don't we nail down the big three, have then them nail down the ten ACs and then go from there?

I perfectly willing, as I'm sure a lot of active users here are as well, in letting Neal pick two others to serve as the big three.  Then we can let them figure out how the process will work in the future, deadlines testing periods, finalization and so forth.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:34 pm 
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(Dave @ Dec. 22 2007,17:30)
QUOTE
Moscovian is speaking a lot of sense here. ?Why don't we nail down the big three, have then them nail down the ten ACs and then go from there?

I've got a bag of nine inch nails in the basement... who's got the hammer? ? :D

It does sound like a good idea to get a little organized.

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Charad
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:50 pm 
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That is really an excellent idea, and it would bring something to us, what we have needed. And also I would like to ask you people keep everything friendly. There has been a bit bad air around for a while which isn't really helping. :(
I know frustration hits sometimes, but we should know that it is always better to be nice. And it starts from within. :)
Have a nice day all of you.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:30 pm 
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(Dave @ Dec. 22 2007,17:30)
QUOTE
Moscovian is speaking a lot of sense here. ?Why don't we nail down the big three, have then them nail down the ten ACs and then go from there?

I perfectly willing, as I'm sure a lot of active users here are as well, in letting Neal pick two others to serve as the big three. ?Then we can let them figure out how the process will work in the future, deadlines testing periods, finalization and so forth.

I agree with this. Seperate from SGs issues, we need a leading council. These should be trusted, knowledgable players as free of bias as possible. They should be able to debate any proposed changes from a variety of viewpoints.

If SG get their act together, then this 'unofficial three' (or more) can act as a liason to the 'official ERC' - where they are different.

I propose that we elect nealhunt as the first NetEA executive (since he appears to have the majority backing of players here, in SG and in other places), and that he selects two (or more) other player/members to join him (and that these dont need to be from here, but should sign up and participate here). I propose this over a free election, and hope that anyone who takes the position is able to commit to it properly.

The first tasks of this group would be to set up a schedue of debate and update, and ratify the ACs.

I also think that the ACs should be given a certain amount of freedom in developing and rules creation. While it would be ideal to have all changes to go through the ERC, I do believe that the ACs should be able to advance their list and associated rules, within reason.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:31 pm 
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This is more like it guys. I agree with Neal nominating 2 or 4 guys to support him to form the agreed leaders who will effectively the new ERC

One other thing; we need to have the "official" location for the approved rules and lists etc. If possible (and assuming JJ et al agree), I would suggest this continues to be the SG boards. BUT this does mean that we need appropriate access (a "gatekeeper" who has the authority to post to the location). Unfortunately to date the process of getting approved items posted there appears to have become very sporadic at best, and we will need more dedicated support. If GW / JJ etc cannot guarantee this dedicated support, then we need another point like Epicoms (which I know CS has already volunteered).

Finally, (and I appreciate this means extra work) are we going to restore the other parts of the rule book (scenarios etc) as another appendix or somesuch - they are most usefull for training purposes after all.

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:01 am 
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I am on board with Neal as the titular head of the cabal. Let him delegate as he sees fit. If you ask a person to lead you, you owe it to him to not shackle him as he takes up the challenge.

For myself as many of you know I am a loyal fan of Epic and Jervis, if not GW/SG. I still believe that the Demiurg (squats) have a place in Epic Armageddon regardless of what may have befallen them within the current fiction. So I welcome this open-ended fan-based effort.

What says Neal to the call for his mandate to take the lead?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:04 am 
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I'd love to know Neal's vision for the future.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Rules Review Process 2008
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:31 am 
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