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Demolishers
Ilushia
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:09 pm 
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At present I think the Vindicator isn't a bad tank. It's just it's not a particularly good tank compared to the alternatives. It can't shoot at vehicles as well as predator annihilators. It can't shoot at infantry as well as predator destructors. It has somewhat more flexibility, but fielding two destructors and two annihilators in the same unit more or less matches or beats its firepower against most targets compared to four vindicators. Even with Walker (Which I like, it's fitting with the huge dozer blade the thing has), I don't think it's good enough. Against anything short of doubling to fire into cover (Which the Preds do somewhat better having longer range) four predators do better then four vindicators as near as I can tell. That, to me, says that either vindicators need to be cheaper then Predators (Not very practical in a list which goes in 25 point increments as they're not THAT much worse) or they need a bit more of a boost to their lethality somewhere. Making them MW in a firefight gives them a very clear advantage over Predators, as they then become better then predators against most targets (especially predator annihilators) in assaults.
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Markconz
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:34 pm 
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As I've said before, good luck in getting wide support for any other alternative.  At least the MW, if not the IC, has widespread support, which is more than can be said for any other idea ever proposed in the long history of this issue.
Lots of people have pet ideas, but only MW is supported by more than a few.

Thus MW is fine for now, whether Neal decides to keep IC or not (MW is justified by fluff and 40k, IC by fluff but not by 40k).

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Markconz
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:36 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 12 2007,19:09)
QUOTE
the Vindicator isn't a bad tank. It's just it's not a particularly good tank

:D

How subtle can we make the distinction...

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:43 pm 
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Well, i did say compared to the alternatives! XD

What I mean is: The stats for the Vindicator don't make  it bad. What makes it bad is that the other options in the list are better then it is at what it does. That, combined with the fact it doesn't mesh very well with much of anything they can be attached to (The best unit to add them to is basically Land Raiders, as at least then they're in similar range-brackets and movement speeds) only makes this worse.

By making them a dedicated FF tank, they're more generally useful to the list and more likely to see play, especially with 25cm movement so they can at least keep up with the Land Raiders and only slow down Tac Marines and Assault Marines a little bit.
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rpr
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:19 am 
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I like the FF MW -idea. cannon as 30cm AP3+/AT4+ IC,  FF MW (not EA)
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Markconz
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:02 am 
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How do you justify a FF MW attack on this sort of gun without the gun itself doing the same damage? That seems the opposite to what it should be. If anything in a FF situation a lumbering siege gun should be compromised in its effectiveness, as compared to bombardment at a safer distance.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:28 am 
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Hmm because of the SpaceMarine crew? Theyx are superior in every way to a Guardsman, in tactics too. So they would use the firepower of the Vindicator in a much more improved way than the crew of the LR Demolisher which results in a better FF-Attack in the scale of an Epic assault action.

This is the only justification for this which i can come up with.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:15 am 
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So marines neglect skills at long range fire compared to close range.

Nah.

Marines are super human and as good as they can be at absolutely every situation they might encounter with the weapons they use. Over and over again that is stated in the background.

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Reddeth
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:43 am 
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Reading this debate with interest. Agree the original vindicator was markedly inferior, though it does appear the current handbook/changedoc version has gone too far.

The simplest alternative I can see is to remove the IC from the demolisher cannon stat line and stick with 30cm MW4+. This gives the space marines some additional MW attacks which are going to balance the list more against armies with high numbers of WE. Combined with the speed increase to 25cm this makes the vindicator a decent armour option.

Keeping the same demolisher cannon stat for all the effected vehicles would be good, as stated other stat tweaks can be utilised to keep the LR Demolisher and Baneblade from being overpowered.

Re the MW FF idea - it seems too powerful and difficult to justify from either a realism or fluff standpoint.
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Crabowl
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:41 pm 
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Even if vindicator would have MWFF I dunno if it would be all that useful. You get 4 for 275 or you can get 5 speeders with MWFF5+ for 200. That's 68.75pts vs 40pts per unit. Speeders move 10cm faster, can always choose to use FF and they're scouts as well.

If vindicators would move 30cm and demolisher would be (AP3+/AT4+/30cm and Small Arms(15cm)/Swap Attacks(1)/MW) then they might be ok on their own or as an upgrade. The "Swap Attacks" means that 1 of the normal FF attacks would be swapped with a MW attack. That would work even with baneblades and other WEs without making them too good. That swap thingy could also be used with titan weapons to fine tune their effectiveness.

As to why it could shoot MW in FF but not to 30cm, who knows. All I know there are units that have MW over range but not in FF. Is it such a big deal if there'd be a single gun in the game that would be more powerful at 15cm than it is at 30cm?

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Crabowl
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:34 pm 
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(Hena @ Dec. 13 2007,13:04)
QUOTE
As for speeders. Speeders are LV (meaning AP weapons will hit them as well). They hit worse (5+ vs 4+) in FF. Also they cannot be added to infantry formations. Their weapon range is worse and certaily it is more crappier against targets in cover.

I suppose you forgot the 68.75 vs 40 unit cost. That's 1.7 speeders for the cost of a single vindicator. Using the 1.7 multiplier, fire fight is 0.5 vs 0.567MW, advance is 0.5MW vs 0.567MW (speeder loses 5cm in range) and double is 0.33MW vs 0.283MW (speeder gains 5cm in range). My gut feeling is that skimmer, scout and 10cm more speed is about equal to 15cm more range, IC and AV over LV. Even if it isn't you can get more speeders than vindies. Why would anyone who isn't making a full land raider army want to slow down formations by taking vindies in them?

As for the name change I dunno. Why are the weapons named in the first place anyway? It's not like they're followed in unit stats in any sensible way. For example raider FF4+ vs destructor FF4+. Why not annihilator too or only destructors (new prices make land raiders the obvious choice so hooray for whoever invented that). I'd love to see just stats next to units but that's never gonna happen so the next best thing is to have the minimum number of different weapon entries.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:57 pm 
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I know I am coming into an ancient debate here, without much clue as to why it is happening nor the history.  But has disrupt been concidered for the demolisher?

A massive concussion shell would dirrupt most battle lines.

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