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Demolishers
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:20 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 12 2007,19:04)
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Further to the above, it will also insta-kill most multi-wound characters (Anything that is Toughness 5 or below).

Not to forget rolling 2D6 +10 and choosing the highest dice for armour penetration(highest armour value in the game is 14) like all ordenance weapons do.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:22 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Dec. 12 2007,18:13)
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This poll on the demolisher wasn't exactly a landslide vote either.  22 for, 15 against, 3 for other.

I'm just lending an ear to a potential solution.  Is the Baneblade used that much in assaults?

It's worth noting that that poll came out in favour of MW status for the Demolisher's weapon stat; The vote did not ratify MW with ignore cover (Which is the frankly overpowered stat that has been adopted in the Handbook).

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:41 pm 
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I've had reservations on MW/IC for a while.

Overall, I think boosting the Demolisher is a good idea.  It helps the Baneblade and the Vindicator, which both need it, and the boost to the Russ Demolisher is easily offset.  I'm just not sure about the stats.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:03 pm 
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I'm in favour of MW4+. The stats demand a step change from the battlecannon.

Ignore Cover goes too far however.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:08 pm 
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AP 3+/AT 4+ Ignore Cover is a step up from the battlecannon. But I think MW 4+ is too good for it to be honest. The thing is incredibly inaccurate, lethal or not, at longer ranges and while it will kill a few guys quite dead it's unlikely to wipe out an entire squad all at once unless you're practically ontop of them (IE: Assaulting them!).

For the Baneblade: So we could make the Vindicator's weapon be a different model of demolisher cannon. Something like:

Vindicator Demolisher/30cm/AP3+ AT4+/IC
AND (15cm)/FF/MW (No EA).

I'm still unconvinced the Baneblade needs that much additional ability, beyond getting the weapons its supposed to have, myself, other then in the sense that it might need to move somewhat faster (Frankly 15cm for what amounts to a close assault tank is absurdly slow. 20cm would make more sense, as it's a WE and can't garrison anyway).

For Walker+IC in FF on the Marine vindicator that might be reasonable. But I was hoping the addition of the vindicator demolisher could also help the marines against really heavy armor (especially heavy armor fearless) in an assault, which IC doesn't really do (Honestly IC in an assault is nearly worthless. Unless you're attacking no-armor-save guys in forests it doesn't do anything, basically.)
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Soren
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:13 pm 
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I really disagree. walker and boost speed does not solve the Vindicator-problem. It?s still is too slow, too weak in assaults as in shooting and it never acts as a siege breaker it is intended to be. It is simply not worth 75 points. No equation or calculation will change this.

On the other side I am pretty sure that not all demolishers should be changed. So I strongly favor a rename of the Vindicator?s maincannon to act freely without altering three other units. This will be the easiest way. In some fluffwise articles (I do not remember where) GW stated, that the Marines use boosted ammunition to get out the superior effect compared to their Guard counterparts. This is statement enough for me to justify altered stats.


my 0,0002 cent


Soren

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:25 pm 
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AP 3+/AT 4+ Ignore Cover is a step up from the battlecannon.


And the 45cm difference in range is worth a heck of a lot more than that +1 to AP and Ignore Cover status.


Consider, 4 Leman Russ, or 4 Vindicators?

They cost about the same, after all...


Without a big pump to their main cannon, Vindicators cannot compete.


For the Baneblade: So we could make the Vindicator's weapon be a different model of demolisher cannon.

No we can't. It's emphatically the same cannon as is fitted to the Leman Russ Demolisher.

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Soren
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:34 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 12 2007,19:25)
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No we can't. It's emphatically the same cannon as is fitted to the Leman Russ Demolisher.

We can as we rename it and state it?s Hightech SM-targeting and another type of ammo.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:34 pm 
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IA says the Vindicator fires rocket propelled shells. But nothing about what the Leman Russ' Demolisher fires.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:47 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 12 2007,14:25)
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No we can't. It's emphatically the same cannon as is fitted to the Leman Russ Demolisher.

I find this amusing, as the main gun on the Baneblade has always been a standard battlecannon... Until GW decided that it needed to be better for 40K scale and made it a longer-ranged, higher-powered battlecannon and renamed it the 'Baneblade Cannon' or something like that. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever we can't claim the marines use special ammo or modified demolisher cannons or even better targeting systems to account for it being MW in their case and not MW in the case of others. GW does this ALL the time with their weapons, I fail to see why we should let it stop us from doing the same.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:48 pm 
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E:A isn't 40k.


No it's not, it's even more strictured than 40k! (Not less, as you would prefer).

you think all Marine armour is useless ...

Drop them a further 25pts or give them RA5+ and you'll be wrong about that. Currently I think Predators are marginal, Land Raiders are about okay, and Vindicators are terrible.

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Soren
 Post subject: Demolishers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:03 pm 
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We just have to follow the rule:

Same weapon is same stat. So we have to rename the weapon. And yes, there is a difference.

My (long rusty and not played) 40k Marine list was feared because of their two Vindicators. They got Machine Spirit ungrade and fired even if the mortal crew was shaken. More than once they changed the battle from loss to victory and wrecked havok even unter heavy  enemy-fire. They fired even when demolishers were unable to counter fire because hits prevented them to do. Thats the way I would like to see Vindicators in EA. (and this would also be more than enough to justify altered stats, even if my arguments above are not enough. :;): )

I know 40k is not the main thingie, but we can look at the battles there and maybe learn something for EA.

Soren




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