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Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
Chroma
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:53 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Dec. 12 2007,14:41)
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Hull down status makes sense, in which case the rules should ?probably state that the line of fire must cross the terrain for a unit to be eligible for a terrain cover.

That already exists in the original rules:

1.8.2 Cover To Hit Modifiers
Units that are in terrain that is tall enough to at least partially obscure them from an attacker?s view receive a -1 to hit modifier when being shot at (see 1.9.5). The to hit modifier also applies if intervening terrain obscures the target partially from view.

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Dave
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:01 pm 
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(Markconz @ Dec. 12 2007,01:44)
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Curious - can anyone shed any light on why this change may have been made? I'm having a hard time remembering, and I'm a bit busy to troll through this or other threads to find out.

Just a guess, but infantry get cover benefits for touching an AV, maybe this was meant to make all cover along the same lines?

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:11 pm 
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(Chroma @ Dec. 12 2007,09:53)
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Dec. 12 2007,14:41)
QUOTE
Hull down status makes sense, in which case the rules should  probably state that the line of fire must cross the terrain for a unit to be eligible for a terrain cover.

That already exists in the original rules:

1.8.2 Cover To Hit Modifiers
Units that are in terrain that is tall enough to at least partially obscure them from an attacker?s view receive a -1 to hit modifier when being shot at (see 1.9.5). The to hit modifier also applies if intervening terrain obscures the target partially from view.

Oh right. Forgot about that rule. I guess I need to reread the rulebook.  :p

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Dave
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:12 pm 
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It'll help for Sunday :p

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Ginger
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:08 pm 
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Ok guys, I guess I better own up to the offending bit from the SG boards. You have surmised correctly that the suggestion originated from the rule about infantry touching AV to gain cover from fire. As I said in the SG thread, in the UK tournaments I play in, the people there have extended the principle to mean that if a unit is touching terrain, it gains cover from fire - but not the cover save (you have to be in the terrain to gain that). So a unit is harder to hit if it is touching terrain, and it gains the cover save if it is actually in the terrain (but may have had to take a dangerous terrain test to get there).

There are two lines of reasoning - in real life most terrain features do not have hard edges:- buildings have gardens, outbuildings, small alleyways, hedges / fences etc. Woods, swamps, rough ground etc all tend to thin out, and even where trees do end abruptly, camouflaged vehicles may still hide in their shadows  even though they are in front of the woods relative to the enemy trying to see them - all of which makes them a bit harder to detect or hit. Secondly, this clarified and simplified the rules presented to cover all eventualities.

However that said, Greg Lane (who did seem to use the definition himself) did also promise to discuss this with the ERC, but I don't know whether that discussion took place or not (or what was decided).

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Dave
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:14 pm 
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Under that logic then would vehicles benefit for the -1 when touching a forest or something similar, while not necessarily in a hull down position?

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Ginger
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:26 pm 
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Yes, that was the intention.

FIRER . . . . . . . . . T1 . . . . T2(Wo[T3]oooood) . . T4

so here
- T1 gets no benefit at all
- T2 would gain the -1 for shooting at cover
- T3 gains -1 for shooting, and the cover save for being in cover
- T4 could not be seen (even by a skimmer) unless the LOS had been agreed in the 5 min warmup

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:31 pm 
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(Ginger @ Dec. 12 2007,18:08)
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As I said in the SG thread, in the UK tournaments I play in, the people there have extended the principle to mean that if a unit is touching terrain, it gains cover from fire - but not the cover save (you have to be in the terrain to gain that). So a unit is harder to hit if it is touching terrain, and it gains the cover save if it is actually in the terrain (but may have had to take a dangerous terrain test to get there).

That's exactly how the guys in my group play it.

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Dave
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:08 pm 
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(Ginger @ Dec. 12 2007,13:26)
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Yes, that was the intention.

FIRER . . . . . . . . . T1 . . . . T2(Wo[T3]oooood) . . T4

so here
- T1 gets no benefit at all
- T2 would gain the -1 for shooting at cover
- T3 gains -1 for shooting, and the cover save for being in cover
- T4 could not be seen (even by a skimmer) unless the LOS had been agreed in the 5 min warmup

If the Ts were infantry they would benefit from the cover save but I thought AVs never got cover saves, only -1 for hull down positions and now (possibly) for touching/being in terrain.

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rpr
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:06 pm 
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I really hate the idea that a titan pushing its rear end to a building would get a cover!

Shooter ------- Titan Building

I can buy the idea of ruins/woods having a non-hard edge but buildings would be just absurd.

And in my opinion vehicles should still make dangerous terrain test if they want to benefict from cover (unless they can position it between them and the enemy)

If some groups play that way - fine, but do not make it an generic rule. Not at least to other units than infantry.
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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:59 pm 
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(Ginger @ Dec. 12 2007,17:08)
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There are two lines of reasoning - in real life most terrain features do not have hard edges:- buildings have gardens, outbuildings, small alleyways, hedges / fences etc. Woods, swamps, rough ground etc all tend to thin out, and even where trees do end abruptly, camouflaged vehicles may still hide in their shadows  even though they are in front of the woods relative to the enemy trying to see them - all of which makes them a bit harder to detect or hit. Secondly, this clarified and simplified the rules presented to cover all eventualities.

Ok, but surely the effects you speak of, in game terms, could be classified as still being in the terrain, just as easily as they could be classified as touching it.

In any case I will leave a final decision on this to Neal.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:25 pm 
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I really hate the idea that a titan pushing its rear end to a building would get a cover!


We only allow the 'touching cover' rule for infantry, not vehicles or war engines; A house rule consensus in lieu of a firm ruling.

We also require dangerous terrain tests for any vehicle that merely touches dangerous terrain.

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rpr
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:23 am 
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I do not see a point of giving cover for just touching the terrain - being on it would make this much easier, no special rules then needed - if you go into terrain, you get cover and must make dangerous terrain test (if applicable). No need to change a working basic rule, no need for separate rules for different kind of units.

(vehicle cover for infantry is already a special rule as there is that limit on how many can get the cover, so it can also have that special rule of just touching)
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