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Streamlined titan list
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:08 pm 
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Nothing major, just replying to a few points made and going back through old playtest reports and stuff.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:32 pm 
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I've only quickly glanced over the spreadsheet, but can I ask two questions.

1)  Why does the plasma destructor have 3 seperate entries (one for 6shots, one for 7 shots and one for 11 shots)?

2)  Why is its tohit so low.  MW5+ means on a double or against enemy incover/hull down you need sixes to hit.  Which doesn't seem lke that much or a destructor weapon (though I have no dea what it's old stats were).

I would of thought that something along the lines of 60/90cm range 4 x MW4+ TK(1) slow firing would suit the weapon and will have it compareable to the volcano cannon in anti WE capability, trading possible number of DC removed for the chance to take out multiply AV targets.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:41 pm 
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For the Knights Paladin you might consider something like 'Three Knights Paladin plus one Seneschal character upgrade' for 325 points with stats like this:

Type: War Engine. Move: 25cm. Armor: 4+ CC: 4+. FF: 4+
Weapon/Range/Firepower/Notes
Knight cannon/45cm/AP 4+ AT 4+
Autocannon/45cm/AP 5+ AT 6+
Chainsword/Close Combat/Assault Weapon/EA(+1), MW
Knight Lance/Close Combat/Assault Weapon/EA(+1), First Strike
Notes: 1 DC, Knight Shield, Reinforced Armor, Walker.

This makes them 5cm faster then the old Paladins and clearly makes them melee-centric (As opposed to fire-fight centric the way that Titans tend to be). 3 of these guys get 3 first-strike, 3 regular and 3 MW melee attacks, similar to a Reaver armed with a CCW but lacking TK and picking up First Strike on 3 of their attacks. I think this nicely puts them in an assault role somewhere between Warhounds (Faster, worse armor, lower combat values) and a Reaver (Slower, tougher, better combat values) when it comes to fighting in an assault. The price is based on the old ones at 300 for 3+Seneschal, with a price-hike to compensate for their faster movement speeds (Though they could potentially lose War Engine status, and drop back to 300 points, reasonably I think. They'd lose the ability to barge, but their melee attacks could then spill over to non-melee opponents, which might fit better). Seneschal adds Leader and Inspiring.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:57 pm 
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(ragnarok @ Dec. 02 2007,17:32)
QUOTE
1)  Why does the plasma destructor have 3 seperate entries (one for 6shots, one for 7 shots and one for 11 shots)?

2)  Why is its tohit so low.  MW5+ means on a double or against enemy incover/hull down you need sixes to hit.  Which doesn't seem lke that much or a destructor weapon (though I have no dea what it's old stats were).

I would of thought that something along the lines of 60/90cm range 4 x MW4+ TK(1) slow firing would suit the weapon and will have it compareable to the volcano cannon in anti WE capability, trading possible number of DC removed for the chance to take out multiply AV targets.

It is a spreadsheet used for comparing possible weapon stats. It was mentioned in a different thread and I thought I would include it so people could fiddle around with what they saw as good stats.

Case in point is the Plasma Destructor. It is indeed bad at doubling and stuff, however it is quite nifty at sustaining. basically upping the rate of fire but lowering the to hit makes something better at sustaining than doubling, with something like the plasma blastgun at the other end of the scale.

So the current stats mean it is better at sustaining, same as advancing and worse at doubling than a plasma cannon, with 90cm vs 60cm range. Now this could be somewhat weak so other options are in there too (7xMW5+ and XxMW6+).

The idea is to differentiate the weapons.

The VC is best verse heavy armour, unless you are sustaining, the PD against lighter armour.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:52 pm 
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Knight Shields: I've been thinking about how Knight Shields work, as they stand they're essentially just a 4+ save against TK weapons and only when not being subject of crossfire. I'd kinda like them to feel a little more special then this, not as good as Void Shields but useful for something other then 'Oop, that volcano cannon bounces off my shield!' moments. So I'd propose something like this:

"Knight Shields: Knights are shielded by low-powered energy fields which, while not as durable as voidshields, consume fairly small amounts of energy. These shields are only projected in a single direction at a time, covering roughly half of the knight at any given moment. In game terms these shields give the Knights an extra 5+ save taken before armor saves, this save my be combined with any armor saves permitted by the attack. Against TK attacks roll a separate save for each point of damage inflicted by the attack as these weapons can quite easily overpower the knight shields defenses. You may not make Knight Shield saves against melee attacks or when subject to Crossfire."

This essentially makes Knights tougher against any kind of ranged attack, but not as much tougher as a Void Shield would (Comparatively it stops about 1/3 attacks, instead of 1 attack automatically before going down). I like making saves against each point of TK damage as this generally preserves the relative power of TK weapons (IE: A TK(1) and a TK(D6) are still of the same lethality relative to one another) and I think suits the idea that those huge weapons can potentially over-power the shields by brute force rather then luck. This does add to the survivability of the unit compared to the prior list, and would certainly need playtesting, but I think would make Knight Shields a more flavorful and enjoyable item in the game then the nearly-nonexistent effect they have currently.
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:05 pm 
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For Knights i had come up with this:

ShockLance: Gives Knight a +1 on the to-hit-number in CC if on Engage orders (so CC4+ would count as CC3+).
KnightShield: Threads TK-attacks as MW-attacks (but the (Dx ) damage dealt out remains, only that with RA a save is allowed)and MW-Attacks as AT-attacks. Not usable in CC and Crossfire.

A critical hit destroys the Knight.

Knight Paladin (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 20cm  4+ 3+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Battlecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+
Heavy Chainsword BaseContact AssaultWeapon MW, EA(+1)
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ShockLance

Knight Errant (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 20cm  4+ 4+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
ThermalCannon 30cm MW4+ AND (15cm) SmallArms EA(+1),MW
PowerGauntlet BaseContact AssaultWeapon MW, EA(+1)
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ShockLance

Knight Lancer (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 25cm  4+ 5+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Battlecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+
Power Lance (15cm) SmallArms MW, EA(+1)
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ShockLance

Knight Crusader (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 15cm  4+ 4+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Twin Lascannon 45cm AT4+
QuakeCannon 90cm MW2+, TK(1) Always places +1 BM on target formation
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ThickRearArmor

Knight Castellan (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 15cm  4+ 4+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Twin Autocannon 45cm AP4+/AT5+
QuakeCannon 90cm MW2+, TK(1) Always places +1 BM on target formation
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ThickRearArmor

Baron (150pts)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 25cm  4+ 3+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Battlecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+
Power Lance (15cm) SmallArms MW, EA(+1)
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ShockLance, Commander, Inspiring, Fearless, ThickRearArmor


I see Knights as the equivalent to SuperHeavyTanks. Faster, but lighter built (DC2 instead of DC3). What they lack at firepower they have at CC- or FF-potential.

Original thread can be found here:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....knights




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rpr
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:16 pm 
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I really hate 1 DC war engine -knight. Why not simply an AV, stompa is bigger and is AV...
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:19 pm 
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As you see my proposal has 2 DC :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:19 pm 
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(rpr @ Dec. 02 2007,15:16)
QUOTE
I really hate 1 DC war engine -knight. Why not simply an AV, stompa is bigger and is AV...

I agree, I hate the 1DC thing... either make 'em AVs or DC2 war engines like BlackLegion just proposed.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:20 pm 
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I'm not a fan of treating TK weapons as MW to be honest. This downgrades multi-hit TK weapons a LOT while making multi-shot one-hit TK weapons basically the same. Compare, for instance, the Volcano Cannon to the Melta Cannon. Normally the Volcano Cannon is better then the Melta-Cannon against WE targets, while the melta-cannon is better against infantry/vehicles. Making both treat as MW shots makes the Melta-Cannon substantially better then the Volcano Cannon as you can now inflict 2 DC with the Melta-Cannon while the VC maxes as 1 DC. I've made much the same argument against Living Metal, though not too many people seem to listen (Which honestly is basically what this becomes: Living metal when not crossfired/in melee).

The improvements in CC ability seem weird as well. Why would you be better when charging the enemy? Can you not discharge the lance as a defensive weapon? Like, say, when that Carnifex comes running up to chew on your ankles? Seems kindof arbitrary mostly created to make them more offense-oriented, and adds another special rule I don't think is particularly necessary. This is especially true as the 'charge into their face and beat them senseless' Knights Errant DON'T have lances, and thus actually are worse on a charge (By a lot) then the Knights Paladin, going from 2+ CC with 2 attacks and 1 MW attack to 4+ to hit with 2 attacks and 1 MW attack (And 1 5+ MW FF attack).

I'm not a terrible fan of them having battlecannons either. A 75cm range makes them quite nice at placing blast markers on opposing formations, where as I'd see that kind of ability primarily in the Titans. It also makes them feel too much like big, walking Leman Russ IMHO with an assault-bias.

The Knights Errant and Knights Lancer are both particularly odd, as near as I can tell neither of them are as good at assaulting as the Knights paladin are under those rules!

The Quake Cannon rules seem odd as well. Do they place +1 BM per cannon or +1 total? If +1 per cannon this would be rediculously good as these would almost certainly impart at least 5-6 BMs in a single turn at anything they pointed at!

Getting kinda derailed from Chris' purpose for the thread, though. But really not a fan of those knight stats, they lead to some very strange and potentially incredibly broken results.

[Edit]For the record: I'm fine with AV. Infact, under my rules they'd probably work BETTER as AV then as WEs, really. Since WEs can only make melee attacks against things in base-to-base with them and can't have melee attacks 'spill over'. Infact, I think I pointed out their capacity to become AV in my original knight stats post!
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:23 pm 
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I had proposed some stats for Titanweapons inthe past. Thread canbe foundhere:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....klegion

But the donwload links doesn't work anymore and i seem to misplaced or deleted the original file. Does someone still have it?

@Ilushia: A TK(D3) weapon would with my proposal of the KnightShield downgraded to a MW(D3) weapon. It would still deala out multiple damage but with RA a single save is allowed.
The KnightShield downgrades the type of damage, not the amount.

The improvements in CC ability seem weird as well. Why would you be better when charging the enemy? Can you not discharge the lance as a defensive weapon?

No. Historically (in Epic) Shocklances where a charge-only weapon mounted in the Knights visor. While charging the Knight builds up the charge (like a dynamo)for the Shocklance and releases it at the moment he reaches the enemy.

EDIT: Found it :D




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:34 pm 
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You'd need to specifically note that in the rules then. Because normally a MW shot deals one damage not X damage.

I never played any of the old editions of Epic. I've never read most of the old fluff (Aside from what's in the online stuff for Net EPIC) and my interest is in making the units work and play well under the current rules, not to preserve or re-create the rules from the older editions in the current rules. So my opinions and proposals are likely to dramatically differ from those who -have- done so and want to do so. So, no offense intended if I ever come off sounding like I think you're totally nuts.  :laugh:
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:37 pm 
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We are Epic gamers...we are supposed to be nuts :D

The stats for the Knights as well for the TitanWeapons above where inspired from the rules in the Codex Titanicus book.

P.S. The Knight Errant HAS a ShockLance.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:02 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 02 2007,21:34)
QUOTE
...my interest is in making the units work and play well under the current rules, not to preserve or re-create the rules from the older editions in the current rules. So my opinions and proposals are likely to dramatically differ from those who -have- done so and want to do so.

Personally I am all with this view of things.

Knights in the titan list cannot in my view replicate Titan abilities. The 'hole' that has been left for them is as fast CC units (as CC/FF and fast FF is covered by the Titan chassis with or without specialist weapons). To be good assault units they have to be able to reach their target, fight and have a reasonable chance of winning (so would prefer not to see 3 strong units doing this - no matter how good that's a suicide formation).

And there's 325 (maybe slightly more) points for it in the support formation philosophy (support formation no more than roughly half the value of a Reaver).

The fly in the ointment is making whatever work with a knight list, unless you say something along the lines of they get nice new suits when joining the tl on campaign, which is why they are so keen (but let me state for the record I didn't like them back in wd 12x days and still aren't a fan now, i may even sell all of mine to spite myself!) to come.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:56 am 
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Poop, now that Reaver MB and Plasma Destructors have been balanced/downgraded I shall not be using them.

Now you should sit on your blitz and hope that somebody is stupid enough to put his head in the open so you could shoot it with sustaining plasmadestructors. Bad thing is that other weapons have much shorter range than Destructor so you just have to hope that enemy makes his mistake to put juicy formation right in the face of your titan. So it is basically just VC when it comes to support weapons.

I dont know does it have anything to do with gamebalance, but I have difficulties to make army with that list. It does not feel like "yeah, this is what I want to do".

:(

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