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Streamlined Titan list
Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:44 am 
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In theory, yes. But that also assumes that you can't regenerate all your missing void shields and remove the remaining blast-markers with just the dice rolls (Not too uncommon with Warhound Packs, and even reasonable with Reavers), and that you care about removing the blast markers to begin with (You're already marshaling, so you'll get to remove blast markers that rally phase potentially and it's unlikely with full shields you'll have more then 2-3 in the end phase). In theory it's useful, but in practice I doubt it'd come up enough to make Leader a very serious benefit for the AMTL. Primarily their use seems, to me, to be in removing blast markers in the rally phase so you have 0 to start the next turn. Which is nice, to be sure, but with a lack of special weapons and how difficult it is to break titans (And the fact that they can't be suppressed) I don't see them as worth more then 25 points each.

Also keep in mind that as of right now Leader doesn't stack, even for Titans. Otherwise it'd be pretty grotesque, as you could argue that every DC equates to 1 Leader for the unit! (or even if you didn't you could give a Warlord a Vet Princepts, a Legate and a Devotional Bell to get 3 leaders on it. XD)
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:07 am 
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Yes you can't use leader to get void shields up directly, but as had been said it frees up resources to deal with void shields.

Getting an assault Warlord to its objective (in between the two enemy ones 15cm apart) (double turn 1, engage/advance turn 2) and marshalling (turn three) with a good roll and leader presents a near pristine 850 point war engine to deal with.


Anyway the ever mobile stuff to consider thing

I guess its worthwhile having a suggested list of changes somewhere. I'll stick them here and periodically move the post down as more come in :)

Aircraft, do whatever
Ordinatus, strip out/increase to all variants
Weapons, fiddle, bring VMB down to 5 shots? Look at plasma?
Upgrades, make support weapons (to disallow the quake reaver? Or also get rid of one tactical weapon requirement so it always it but hits elsewhere?)
Rename the Skitari to please E&C so these are the 'light' ones.
Perhaps drop character prices, introduce cost for SC, consider prices of warlords.
Tarantula stay/go/get heavy bolter only.
Merge Support and assault weapons so just two lists of weapons (make it simplier to read effectively).

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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:55 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Nov. 21 2007,14:05)
QUOTE
Designing 6 or so weapons configuration "patterns" for each titan type ands assigning apoints value to each would be nice too.
Yes 6 not 3 because 3 seems to be to few to choose from.

And that would allow future IG/SM variant lists to pick from wider choice of titan configurations.

I know the priority is to get an AMTL list that is balanced in isolation and that will allow us to field multiple titans (plus personally also to field other units such as Knights, CI & Ordinati).

But having greater variety of titans to use with other lists would be pretty cool as well.

Cheers

James

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Chroma
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:32 pm 
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(Hena @ Nov. 22 2007,20:51)
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Let's add more to this :). Here's another alternative to army list structure.

Er... why the Warhound Packs as both Core *and* Support formations?  Sure, there's a 25 point break on the Support, but it seems odd.

The "Two Supports per Titan" thing is something I *do* agree with though.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:52 am 
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(wargame_insomniac @ Nov. 23 2007,01:55)
QUOTE

(BlackLegion @ Nov. 21 2007,14:05)
QUOTE
Designing 6 or so weapons configuration "patterns" for each titan type ands assigning apoints value to each would be nice too.
Yes 6 not 3 because 3 seems to be to few to choose from.

And that would allow future IG/SM variant lists to pick from wider choice of titan configurations.

But having greater variety of titans to use with other lists would be pretty cool as well.

Cheers

James

That would never happen, certain configs are better for armies than others. A barrage titan is worth far more to marines than guard say.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:06 am 
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The list you have suggested has a few problems.

1) You can field an all Warhound force.
2) It is 2 support, 1 Auxilla per titan plus 2 air and 1/3 knights. I could build a list with a grand total of one reaver in it and still have a lot of activations. Unless of course you mean the aircraft, knights and Imperial guard all come out of the 1/3? In which case I would have to have two titans.
3) You have a list with three allied contingents, the most any other Imperial list has is 2. Indeed if you count the Skitari it is 4 allied contingents.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:42 am 
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I, for one, am fine with it being rather restrictive in core formations and making it basically a choice of which battle titans to field and what to arm them with. IMHO the main point of deciding on the list-building should lie in the choices of weapons when it comes to battle titans. I'm fine with there only being 3-4 viable setups for the 'core' formations with the rest of the choices coming down to what support you want and what weapons to arm them with. Seems to fit, IMHO, with the style of the Ad Mech as being very stuck in their ways and ordered, differing only if they have to due to limited forces or changes in opposition. With the weapon choices of individual Princepts being one of the major determining factors in difference between the various Legions.

But from a more gameplay standpoint I think it should be a major drawback of the list to have a fairly small number of selections on how to build the army. Not to the point of being identical but very similar, as this makes the list less flexible all the way around and helps downgrade the Titans' hefty durability and lethality somewhat.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:24 am 
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(Hena @ Nov. 23 2007,12:32)
QUOTE
1. Sure. However it would cost more and include at max 11 warhounds (which would cost 2950 points). Though adding another 25 points to core warhound pack would drop that to 10 warhounds. I was just worried that with only Reaver and Warlord the lists would perhaps look too much the same.

It is and it isn't - the fact they have a massive range of weapons means that in theory your core titans should be different to others. Further 'Warhound' lists are supposed to be anti fluff. And I would go for 3 core, 1 upgrade, 4 single, 2 flak :) The effectiveness of these buggers has to be seen to be believed.

2. All the IG and Knight stuff comes out of the 33% limit. In addition there is extra restrictions to each group to make sure that there is no 5 shadowsword armies available :).


But I could end up with with more knights than titans quite easily and so on.

The idea of the list was that originally at least half are Titans. Going back to the original that is achieved through cunning list manipulation - the support formations should be 325 points or less.


3. True that there is three allied groups. However is that a problem? If it makes the list unwieldy to use, then perhaps. But what do you mean about the Skitarii (the support formations perhaps)?

I quite like the way the Imperial lists are basically three fighting arms. One idea I liked for the ad mech is that it is one fighting arm (so everyone is ad mech). A big integrated machine as it were.

But, ultimately so what? Your list could be the Titan Legion from Epsilon 8 which has greater integration with line Skitari battalions and knight worlds.

At the end of the day if the 'core' titan system is sorted out such variant lists become relatively easy to generate.

It comes down to the current system, based around two weapon groups (well three really but for this Titan Legion its 50%+ tactical, the rest whatever, other legions might say 50% or less assault and so on) or Blargs which is based around several, both trying to do different things (this one balance low activations, firepower across the army and existing titan models, Blargs to make each titan individually balanced and list structure do the other bits - well I think it does, when he posts next he can explain).

Once people have had a good look at both they can decide which to go with and then the support options and everything else goes from there.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:56 am 
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(Hena @ Nov. 23 2007,15:40)
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Not easily. You can have Knights max 1000 points (with a 3000 point list). So with 2 selections at titans, you have over that. With only 1 titan, you'd be hard pressed to get the needed 1000+ points from upgrades and support. So while you might be able to do so in theory, you wouldn't most likely get a usable force out of it. Though if you have an idea on how to do, please post a list :). Certainly you wouldn't be doing it easily.

I may be miss reading your list then but I could do
Either
2 Large Paladin households (12 knights) (900)
or
4 Knight groups (1000)
Reaver (or warhound pack and upgrade)
Warhound Pack
2 Shadowswords
500-700 points for 4 support formations

Only additions as such are the Knights and Navy. Knights fit so well in the walker theme that the titan lists represent that I'd really hesitate to leave them out.


Navy - ad mech have their own, it isn't allied.
Walker theme, never thought that personally, its always been battle titan theme for me :) But i can see how people would like to field nowt but walkers.

Of course though like I said above the support at this stage is largely acedemic and can be altered at any time.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:20 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 22 2007,10:07)
QUOTE
Aircraft, do whatever
Ordinatus, strip out/increase to all variants
Weapons, fiddle, bring VMB down to 5 shots? Look at plasma?
Upgrades, make support weapons (to disallow the quake reaver? Or also get rid of one tactical weapon requirement so it always it but hits elsewhere?)
Rename the Skitari to please E&C so these are the 'light' ones.
Perhaps drop character prices, introduce cost for SC, consider prices of warlords.
Tarantula stay/go/get heavy bolter only.
Merge Support and assault weapons so just two lists of weapons (make it simplier to read effectively).

My thoughts on these points:

Aircraft - Use stats & points already used in IG & SM lists
Ordinatus - leave single in for now, but need to play more games first.
Leave weapons alone until we find worst combinations and then review.
Lets keep E&C happy  :;):
Keep Tarantulas for now as need to be proven unbalanced.
Yes merge Support & Assault

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