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Black Legion and free stuff etc.

 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:10 pm 
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Free SCs:  There is background justification.

The armies that have free SCs - Orks and Chaos - are based on the background idea of extreme meritocracy.  They are driven by charismatic and competent individuals.  If the leaders of those armies are not extremely capable, then there is a lieutenant who is more cunning waiting to stab them in the back and assume command.  If you're not a big, bad, Ork/CSM/Heretic AND a tactical genius, you're simply not going to lead any force of any size.

Obviously, there are questions of scale, as not every Epic-sized battle would necessarily have someone of that capability leading it.  However, the concept and flavor is supposed to be for a singular, competent leader to command those armies.

If there are balance issues, that's obviously another matter.

====

If the Avatar is too cheap/easy to summon then the price of the Farseer should go up a nudge, it's not that murky a corrolation...
For example, I think that the 0-1 'free' Vanquisher upgrade in tank companies is blatantly daft.
Really?  Your main complaint seems to be inappropriate scaling - BL assault company, SCs, Commisars, etc..

The "free" Avatar is supposedly "built in" to the Guardian Host cost, despite the fact that you get a single Avatar whether you have 1 Guardian Host or 12 and regardless of whether your army is 2000 points or 200,000 points.

The "free" Vanquisher is in some way not similarly included in the cost of a Leman Russ company, despite the fact that you receive exactly the same force composition for the same price, regardless of how many formations you take and regardless of the total size of the army list.

In other words, the Avatar quite clearly doesn't scale in the slightest,  but you're defending it.  Vanquishers scale exactly, but their inclusion is "daft."

I really don't follow this at all.

===

And just what, exactly, is your pet peeve with the Vanquisher in the Russ formation?  It's neither "free" nor an upgrade.  It is a defined cost for a defined benefit, scalable and balanced.  What is even the slightest bit "free" or "upgrade" about that?

By that standard, doesn't every bundled pricing scheme include "free" upgrades?  - "free" nobz upgrades in the ork warband, "free" trukks upgrades in the speed freeks warband, "free" company commander upgrade in the IG infantry, etc..  Why do you not spew bilious remarks about all of those "daft" formation compositions as well?

It seems that you've arbitrarily decided the Vanquisher is an "upgrade" while ignoring everything else.

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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:15 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 21 2007,18:42)
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Nope it is in order to make Commissars a quantifiable and balanced factor that can then be reliably accounted for. Modeling is a definite secondary consideration.

For example, I think that the 0-1 'free' Vanquisher upgrade in tank companies is blatantly daft.

Funnily enough modelling the little buggers is probably the biggest motivation :) Not everyone used commissars and blue tack like me! (And has a mass of alternate command vehicles.)

The Vanquisher isn't daft it is an allowance for those with existing tank companies. It isn't that much of a boost, so so what if you don't take it. It allows older collections to be a little more WYSIWYG.

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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:50 pm 
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BTW, apologies if my previous post is unduly combative.  I just done fighting with a government attorney over contract language and I'm already having to plan forward for round 2, so I'm a little bit keyed up.

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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:41 pm 
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Free SCs:  There is background justification.


There's background justification to do the same with loyalist Space Marines... why not them too?

And just what, exactly, is your pet peeve with the Vanquisher in the Russ formation?  It's neither "free" nor an upgrade.  It is a defined cost for a defined benefit, scalable and balanced.  What is even the slightest bit "free" or "upgrade" about that?

Because it is listed as 10 Leman Russ, may upgrade 1 to being a Vanquisher for no additional cost, or words to that effect (The word 'upgrade' is specifically there).

Exactly 0% of people will decline to take this option (If they have the model available) because its stats are identical to a normal Leman Russ, except it has AT2+ instead of AT4+ on its main cannon.

For no drawback, you gain extra, uncosted abilities (Or, if we assume that the 650pts cost is the 'true' cost for 9 Russ and 1 Vanquisher, leaving the Vanquisher at home *loses* you abilities, for no points break / other advantage)

The sensible thing would be to say '10 Leman Russ, 625pts, may upgrade one to a Vanquisher for 25pts', or '9 Leman Russ and 1 Vanquisher, 650pts', or *something* that actually takes this increased ability into account.

Phrasing the vanquisher as an upgrade option is... dumb. It is in no regards a logical option not to take the free vanquisher.

Really?  Your main complaint seems to be inappropriate scaling - BL assault company, SCs, Commisars, etc..

Agreed, poorly thought out / intentionally non-scaling rules are my bugbear here.

In a 2000pt skirmish, a space marine player has to spend 100pts on upgrading a unit to SC status... a Chaos player gets an SC for free. That's frankly unbalanced.

No matter how many times you say 'Chaos Warbands are always led by guys with the skill of a Chapter Master', that doesn't mean that that particular Warband Leader is leading the particular part of the army that is represented by those 3000pts on the table.

To demand thusly is frankly to give in to the pull of 'hero hammer', where the greatest leaders and heroes are always present at every single battle that occurs, and no 2000pt skirmish is beneath their notice.



EDIT:

My brother once collected a 'Zombie Pirate' army for Warhammer Fantasy.

One of the rules of the Zombie Pirate army list was that 'The army must always be led by the Zombie Pirate Special Character Luthor Harkon'.

Every single battle, Luthor Harkon stepped to the front and led his army into battle, no matter the opponent or the situation...

The Chaos lists (Both of them) have Luthor Harkon syndrome.



The "free" Avatar is supposedly "built in" to the Guardian Host cost, despite the fact that you get a single Avatar whether you have 1 Guardian Host or 12 and regardless of whether your army is 2000 points or 200,000 points.

Agreed, I don't know why I was arguing this one.

Taking an Avatar should cost some points.


BTW, apologies if my previous post is unduly combative.  I just done fighting with a government attorney over contract language and I'm already having to plan forward for round 2, so I'm a little bit keyed up.

I've been bitten by worse in my time. :)





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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:54 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 21 2007,17:15)
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The Vanquisher isn't daft it is an allowance for those with existing tank companies. It isn't that much of a boost, so so what if you don't take it. It allows older collections to be a little more WYSIWYG.

Then you give a points break for those who don't have the new model, or you tell them that this is a good time to use 'counts as' (It's not like they won't now is it!).

You don't set out to penalize them, that's just poor list design.

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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:59 pm 
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I imagined ther Space Marines Supreme Commander as to be a Captain charged with command over this section of the battlefield and not nessesarily as the Chapter Master himself.

With your reasoning, E&C, the Ork army in the Epic rulebook would be always lead by Ghazgkhull himself.





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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:01 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Nov. 21 2007,20:59)
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With your reasoning E&C the Orks army in the Epic rulebook would be always lead by Ghazgkhull himself.

Well... it is his War Horde being represented... and he is the Warlord of said horde...   :alien:

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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:06 pm 
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Phrasing the vanquisher as an upgrade option is... dumb. It is in no regards a logical option not to take the free vanquisher.

Okay.  If your complaint is that it's given as an option, I can understand that, but it's just squirrelly language not an actual mechanical issue.  To be honest, I'd completely forgotten it was listed that way at all because it's such a non-issue.

There's background justification to do the same with loyalist Space Marines... why not them too?
Space Marines practice succession of leadership through assassination?  Their loyalty is dependent solely on continued military success and plunder?

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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:44 am 
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Depends on the chapter. Space Wolves for instance get given the job based on their ability to complete a variety of 'trials' consisting of walking in a manly fashion, sitting to attention, running over see-saws, crawling through collapsable tunnels and so forth.

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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:07 am 
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(Irondeath @ Nov. 21 2007,15:35)
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(Steve54 @ Nov. 21 2007,13:34)
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Those are pretty much what I'd expect in the review

+ discussions over whether the defiler should reflect the new 40k stats

Indeed.

Plus taking a look at the internal balance of Bikers/Raptors, maybe Raptors +5 Pts per stand and/or BL Bike Coy down to 275 Pts

Better yet:
4 raptors 190, +35 per extra
4 chosen 310, +65 per extra

as they have that lord. Some value fixing could be applied..

And I still think that obliterators are underpriced..
- they are quite "mobile" as they can be dropped, teleported and garrisoned.
- 3x 45cm 5+ flak is just insanely good - compare to most other AA - and that in 4+ RA IS infantry (the toughest kind)

On assault company:
That 0-2 restriction is bad, it could be something like 0-1 per 2 retinues or anything to make it scaled.

On the other issue: if defiler is changed (whty must we jump up and down each time they do something in 40k when they do not even release figs to epic...), then chaos marines have problem with lost artillery/alpha strike - the only choice left is banelord..
(chaos whirlwind? :p )


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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:15 am 
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Without clear Warboss, warband wont try to fight enemy, it tries to find out who is the Warboss. After that has been settled with civilized headbashing and lot of shouting it is time to go to war, and then Epic Game starts. Epic is not about 15 man sqirmish, it is about WAR. And when you go to war, you _have to have_ warboss to lead it (biggest ork around).

When ever you have more than 1 ork, they form an command chain. Some one is always bigger than other so he becomes the leader. When enough orks are gathered/ordered to some place they are leaded by warboss, epic is game that tells about those battles (even 40K:s small sqirmishes are leaded by warboss).


And gamewise, initiative 3+ needs supreme.

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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:46 am 
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Chaos air also has barrage - but lets be honest who wants to bother with an artillery strike when potentially the tie fighters could have 6 45cm AP4+/AT5+ attacks (as currently proposed).

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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:14 am 
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I had always assumed that the 'free' SC was to balance the negative hatered rule. The reroll offsetting the -1 ini.

Thought it was worth a mention/consideration.

Also, regarding Raptors vs Bikes. Why on earth do raptors have FF4+? Because they can have flamers? So can assault marines, and in both cases they are rare upgrades. I think it would be easier and better to drop it to 5+ as this would make more sence and make bikes and raptors different.

Although they may need a slight points drop for this. Maybe.


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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:03 am 
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(nealhunt @ Nov. 21 2007,21:06)
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There's background justification to do the same with loyalist Space Marines... why not them too?

Space Marines practice succession of leadership through assassination?  Their loyalty is dependent solely on continued military success and plunder?

You're dodging my point.

Just because the Black Legion or a Chaos Cult as a whole is led by a Supreme Commander, doesn't mean that the section of the Black Legion or Chaos Cult represented on the tabletop is under the direct control of the SC.

Maybe the nearest chap with SC status is fifty miles away, leading an entirely sepereate attack.

Having an automatic SC come to every battle in this manner is a very simplistic, even childish way of looking at the wargame, in my humble opinion.

Just because a Chaos Cult of 10,000 members has a charismatic leader, it doesn't mean that he (Or one of his skilled luitennants)  is present and leading the 400 cultists on the tabletop... the Epic rulebook talks about SC's in terms of men who lead whole divisions, in command of entire battlefronts...

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 Post subject: Black Legion and free stuff etc.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:09 pm 
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Just for the sake of arguing the fluff-wise justification. What makes a Supreme Commander a Supreme Commander to begin with? The ability to motivate their troops to act even when it might not be in those troops' best interests, and to maintain discipline (Or at least as much discipline as you get) even in the middle of combat. That doesn't mean 'tactical mastery of ultimate ability' for every race. It certainly does for Space Marines and a few others. But surely you can't claim an Ork Big Boss has the same level of tactical genius and skill as an Eldar Autarch or a Space Marine Chapter Master? But they -are- supreme commanders, not because they're tactical geniuses but because they're the biggest, toughest, roughest around and everybody listens to them -or else!-

I see Chaos as much the same. The short answer is: The supreme commander rules through fear, and whomever is at the top of the totem pole is automatically in that position. If you disobey his orders, he'll kill you, plain and simple. They listen to him not out of loyalty or because he's tactically the most masterful individual but because the alternative is a swift death at his hand.

The longer answer is: There's always a supreme commander because there's always somebody who everybody listens to or else. Much like orks, when that individual goes 'missing' the remaining dudes under him fight it out through some means (Perhaps by their ability to lead, perhaps by lethality) and in the end you have a new Supreme Commander.

That said, I do think he ought to cost points even if he is mandatory. For instance an easy way to do it is make him cost 100 points and claim that you MUST take him and he has to be added to some formation, to represent that there will always be someone of this capacity on the field somewhere in any engagement (If there weren't, chances are the chaos forces would be too busy trying to rip eachother apart to determine who should be their leader to fight! XD)






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