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Titan Legion Organisation
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:13 pm 
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I thought i made a separate thread for this in order that this doesn't get ignored or get lost in oblivion. :)

The Black Library novel "Iron Hands" mentions the number and types of Titans in a Titan Legion.

Here the featured Legion consists of 81 Titans:

1 Imperator
40 Warlords
24 Reavers
16 Warhounds

This Legion was newly build and didn't suffer any battlefield casualties.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:09 pm 
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There are eference to demi legio and stuff so there must be a paper strength. Saying that I can imagine some being massive and others only a few dozen.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:12 pm 
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Well Demi-Legio would be half the Titans (0-1/20/12/8)and Quarto-Legio 1/4th of the Titans (0-1/10/6/4).

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:22 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Nov. 21 2007,16:13)
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The Black Library novel "Iron Hands" mentions the number and types of Titans in a Titan Legion.

Here the featured Legion consists of 81 Titans:

1 Imperator
40 Warlords
24 Reavers
16 Warhounds

This Legion was newly build and didn't suffer any battlefield casualties.

Awesome info!  

I'm assuming since it was "newly built" that it was in reference to a specific legion.  Is that accurate?

If so, which legion is it?  Did they give any other detail - colors, emblem, forgeworld, etc.?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:28 pm 
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Kinda goes against the Epic fluff of the Reaver being a lost build.

I was hoping it was as I've only got a half dozen while enough warhounds and warlords for several legions :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:36 pm 
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Aye, as far as I know Reavers are supposed to be the oldest design, the least common (Outside of super-titans like Imperators), and harder to replicate than any other Titan; Most/Many Reavers are supposed to be quite ancient, dating back thousands of years.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:06 pm 
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I don't want to be mean or rain on anybody's parade, but this kind of information has always been changing and suspect in my opinion.

Up until recently the term "Legio" was used as a title instead of a unit of measure.  Legio Victorum, Legio "whatever" to indicate that it was a titan legion based out of a Forge World.  Now there are Legio, demi-Legio, etc. to give rough ideas about how many titans are in a campaign.  What about the titan legion made entirely of Emperor titans?  (Yes, there is one, I forget its name.)  Are you going to say that just because it doesn't have enough titans it is less than a legio?

Not to be rude, but who cares how many titans are in this now standardized "legio?"  Are there campaign rules where this would be important?  Is anyone ever going to run a game of Epic, regardless of edition or version, where you can say that someone took an entire legio in the game?

In Adeptus Titanicus (Epic 1st ed.) the Warlord was mentioned as being the oldest design, predating the Imperium itself.  Now it is the Reaver?  And considering the different patterns of Reavers (and Warhounds and Warlords) I find it difficult to believe that the ability to build Reavers has been lost for some reason.

Guys, don't get wrapped up in this kind of talk.  Yes, it might be fun, but you are quoting vague information from rather dodgy sources.  Invest too much credence in this and it might pull you, or someone else, down a path that we shouldn't go.  If you want to learn anything from this information, learn this: GW is always changing their background to some extent as time goes on, and we have to figure out what is best for our use in NetEpic: Armageddon.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:09 pm 
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Hmm i don't want to spill to much information for everyone who wants to read this OOP book.

"Newly" is relative. The Legio was built bevor the 13th BlackCrusade but when exactly the book didn't say it.

And yes Reavers are an older design than Warlords. But as far i know new Titans of every type can still be build but it will take a loooong time.
It's the same with battleships.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:04 pm 
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Not to be rude, but who cares how many titans are in this now standardized "legio?"

Whether or not it's ever played, there are people who will want to build titan legions just for fun, like the guy I know who built an entire 40K SM chapter to codex specs.

Also, it's part of the titan legions' background.  The interpretation of the rather sketchy background material is a matter of not insignificant dispute with respect to the proper flavor for a TL army list.  For example, the question of availability for individual Warhound titans could be impacted by the ratio of titans in the background material.

It's nothing to put heavy stock in, but as with all the background and 40K rules, it is useful material.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:13 pm 
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Legio is a term used in the same way as Chapter. It is both a name AND a designation of the amount of troops.

Special cases are there. Like the Legio Sinister, the legion which consists entirely of 12 Emperor Class Titans.

So far i know nowhere else was the numbers of Titans in a Legio ever mentioned.  And for ages people speculated about the size of a Legio.
"Iron Hands" is, to myknowledge, the first source which states definitive numbers.

Perhabs this number are only valid for this specific Legion but that these numbers are valid for every Titan Legion could be true too.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:19 pm 
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I've come to view all background material produced by GW as if it was information that a guy I know heard from his cousin's plumber that his brother overheard the lady who does the emperors hair say that that's how it was explained to her.

In other words, all background material is produced by a cabal of inquisitors as a diversion from the fact that the universe's supply of gravity was running out, everyone you never meet doesn't actually exist, and the golden throne is just a scale model. Feel free to view any of it as correct, especially the parts that contradict the other parts. Freedom is slavery, etc. etc.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:51 pm 
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Now there are Legio, demi-Legio, etc. to give rough ideas about how many titans are in a campaign.  What about the titan legion made entirely of Emperor titans?  (Yes, there is one, I forget its name.)  Are you going to say that just because it doesn't have enough titans it is less than a legio?


Those names / deployment sizes have been sitting in the Epic : Armageddon rulebook ever since it was published.

Presumably, those titles are indeed an objective measurement system that can be quickly used by force commanders to detirmine the size of any particular deployment. IE:

- By taking the standard 'Legio' size as 100.
- An Emperor Titan could be worth twelve.
- A Warlord Titan could be worth six.
- A Reaver Titan four.
- A Warhound Titan two.

A commander could add up the 'points' of Titans in the theatre, and if the result was say, 56, he could say 'We have a Demi-Legio in sector zyzzx'.

The particular measuring system used no doubt would differ, but I think I'm on the right track there as to how it's supposed to work.


Not to be rude, but who cares how many titans are in this now standardized "legio?"  Are there campaign rules where this would be important?  Is anyone ever going to run a game of Epic, regardless of edition or version, where you can say that someone took an entire legio in the game?

We don't know, though the information in this thread is rather good!

In Adeptus Titanicus (Epic 1st ed.) the Warlord was mentioned as being the oldest design, predating the Imperium itself.  Now it is the Reaver?

Yes, it is the Reaver, and has been so since at least Titan Legions.

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colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:28 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 21 2007,21:51)
QUOTE
In Adeptus Titanicus (Epic 1st ed.) the Warlord was mentioned as being the oldest design, predating the Imperium itself.  Now it is the Reaver?


Yes, it is the Reaver, and has been so since at least Titan Legions.

Exactly.  For those of us that can remember Rogue Trader coming out this is a perfect example of the way any and all 'cannonical' bits of fluff are just the latest and greatest fad that some young, Johnny-come-lately, whipper-snapper claims to be gospel.  :;):

It's only a problem when someone forgets it's a game of toy soldiers in a fictional universe...

Orde

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:47 am 
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In the book Storm of Iron a demi-legion from Legio Ignatum is composed of 12 titans:

3 Warlords (operating as a battlegroup trio)
5 Reavers (mentioned as a 'battlegroup' I think, and certainly operating as one - although we already knew these were ad-hoc, contrary to TL era trio's)
4 Warhounds (operating in pairs)

Storm of Iron is set immediately prior (or during the beginning of, I'm not sure) of Abaddon's 13th crusade so this is a 'modern' source. That said, the titans are garrisoning a very important, very ancient facility so may represent some sort of older organisation.

The numbers dont match up with the numbers in Iron Hands at all, and lean towards the term 'demi-legion' being a relative term, IE half of a legion, 'legions' being of no fixed size in line with Blarg's understanding, or 'demi-legion' being a general term for "multiple battlegroups of titans" or perhaps "an operational group of titans". The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

I do find it hard to believe that Legio Ignatum (its one of the famous ones!) consists of only 24 titans so I definitely lean towards a vague interpretation of demi-legion.

It does argue against Legions having a fixed size. This makes sense when you think of the twin effects of battlefield casualities, slow construction methods and likely varying production speeds between forgeworlds.

I propose 'Titan legion X' = 'the titans currently fielded by forgeworld Y' and 'demi-legion' = 'multiple battlegroups from titan legion X acting operationally '. In effect demi-legion may = 'all the titans in the theatre from titan legion X, so long as its not the majority of the legion' - hence why we get only 'Legion' and 'Demi-legion' as subdivisions in the 3rd Armageddon War OoBats

Welding together disparate sources - I knew my history degree wasn't wasted.

Really someone needs to bring together all the sources in one document, there is much more information on the AM and on the legio than I think we realise, its just spread out.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Titan Legion Organisation
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:46 am 
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Not really relating exactly to titan legion organization, but there's some neat stuff on the outlook and mental processes of the Ad Mech in the explorator warbands file for Inquisitor up on the SG website. Written by Gav Thorpe and pretty cool stuff, IMHO. Talks a fair bit about how they view the universe and the way they go about solving problems, which I imagine would heavily influence their military tactics and choices for most groups. Might be worth a look at least.
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