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Gargant Big Mob
Ilushia
 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:32 am 
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So, was the gargant big mob ultimately abandoned? I can't seem to find much input on it in ages and ages, or any copies of the actual rules up on the forums anywhere!
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Chroma
 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:52 am 
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I've got version OGBM 2.0 on my hard drive, but it's too big to post here.

I believe the original Champion, pixelgeek, handed it off the Neal, but all the other stuff going on has put it on the back-burner...

It's a very fun list though! ?*laugh*

Neal should be along shortly to sort it all out.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:33 am 
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Has Mega Kannon been FAQ:qed? It kinda changes Krawla to compeletely differend. From CC/transport to longrange barragemonster.

Or is it legal to use Mek to change some Gargant Big Gun to Zzzap? Kustom Gargant w/ Big Mek 475 points for 3 zzzap...

I like OGMB very much, but it is quite open to abuse. Those two points being IMO biggest.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:01 pm 
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Yep.  PG handed it off to me.  The 2.0 update was the last one.

There are a few issues still remaining, mostly mek-weapon balance, the Kustom Gargant (the biggest revision in the last iteration), and whether the Krawla "platform" is costed appropriately.

There hasn't been a lot of feedback since 2.0, so I haven't put much effort into it since then.

I'm leaning towards reducing the shootiness of the Kustom a bit (possibly removing the Big Gunz so Meks couldn't upgrade them - pick a different Mek upgrade).  For the Krawla, probably a price increase and/or a reduction in FF ability, as the FF Mek upgrade turns them into assault monsters.  The Mek weapons are a perennial source of balance issues.  All analysis and recommendation is definitely welcome on those.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:46 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Nov. 13 2007,14:01)
QUOTE
There are a few issues still remaining, mostly mek-weapon balance, the Kustom Gargant (the biggest revision in the last iteration), and whether the Krawla "platform" is costed appropriately.

Krawla platform should get focused. Is it supposed to be transporter or soloer? If it is transporter then it should not cost very much (and its assault/attack values does not need to be so strong).

Nowdays it is almost best platform to every situation: Need FF-monster? Krawla w/ Snappa (12 FF3+, 4 of them first strike).
Long Range Barrage Monster? Krawla w/ Mega Kannon
CC monster and/or transport? Krawla w/ boilers.
Something that can withstand punishment for its points? Krawla.

It has best movement and second best endurance. For your 450 points you get 8 dc + 3d3 Powerfield, when Gargant with same endurance costs 650 (and it only have 1 weapon system more).

I think that CC Gargant should have a place in list, (and I have converted many gargants with 2 Mega-Choppa, hopefully nobody makes them obsolete).

I think that list should have Great Gargants, Gargants, "Some CC Gargant", "Some shooty leetle Gargant" and Supa Stumpas (and stompas, dreds, killakans etc etc etc). It could also have transport gargant, but IMO it should not be same as CC-Gargant.

"CC Gargant" could be just Krawla without transport or option to Mega Kannon, FF to 4+ and pricerise to 500.

Transporter could be something like speed 20, 6 DC, 3+d3 field, 1 Megachoppa and some other leetle gunz, 400 (425? 450?) points.

Kustom Gargant should lose big gunz so they could not be used as Big Mek zzzap.


EDIT: Oh yes, I would very much see option of getting Supreme without GG...




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:06 pm 
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Nico:  What do you think of this list of changes?

Krawla:  475 points, FF4+
[plus an unspecified Megakannon restriction]

Kustom:  Remove Big Gunz (possibly drop points to 400 if needed)

That would keep the shooty and CC specialist gargant variants in the list and, I think, address the problems with those units.  It would add a bit more variety in point costs for the Gargants.

============

I'm also wondering about the Mek Weapons.  I think they are pretty close to being balanced against each other, but seem to be part of the problem with making the list work.  Basically, I see the weapons breaking down like this:

TK - SupaZzap and Mek variants (Mek variants should be a bit better, as you're paying for the Mek to improve them)
Deth Kannon (extra range)
Grot Missiles (alpha strike capability)
Lifta Droppa (extra CC ability)
Supa Lifta Droppa (More TK)

Barrage - Soopa Gun and variants
Mega Kannon (slightly longer range for 2 weapons)
Mega Lobba (lose MW for larger barrage)

Battery Weapons - Gatling Kannon

Close Combat - Ripper Fist and variants
Snappa (lose some TK, but gain FF and First Strike)


It seems to me the Supa Lifta Droppa really isn't necessary.  The list has plenty of TK ability.  Plus, if you have access to a Big Gun to trade, 2 Zzap Guns is definitely better than Supa Lifta Droppa and Big Gun.  There's also the potential confusion in modeling issues.  Are there objections to cutting it?

Is the Gatling Kannon balanced?  Should there be another battery weapon (AT version)? I tend to think not.  The MW barrage seems like it could as easily represent heavy saturation fire as more traditional big-shell artillery style bombardment.

The other issue is the Mega Kannon.  In order for a range boost to work with barrage weapons you need to upgrade all of them.  In that respect it makes sense to replace 2 Soopagunz to give slightly longer range.  It does, however, cause problems with the Krawla when the Krawla replaces the CC weapons with a ranged barrage.

I would just cut the Mega Kannon completely, but it's a reasonable increase for Soopagunz and if it's cut, the options for Soopagunz are basically gone completely (changing just one to a MegaLobba is not an option due to mixed barrages).  Would it be reasonable to change the explanatory text to:

The Mega Kannon requires replacing 2 Soopagunz or 2 SupaZzap Guns (or one of each) with a single Mega Kannon.

That would keep the option for regular gargants/supastompas that can field 2 Soopagunz, but would prevent the Krawla and Kustom from using it.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:14 pm 
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Those seems good. And that Mega Kannon restriction is very sophisticated, because I think that Mega Kannon is very good/balanced choise for Normal Gargant, only problem is with Krawla. :)

I?ll whip up some lists and put it to playtesting. I shall first try Kustom at 400 points and see if it is too good (I think that Kustoms biggest weakness is low shields and "only" 6 dc compared to Krawlas and other "real" gargants :)).




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:41 pm 
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As a note: The 2.0 version of the list seems to fix the 'swap big gunz for kustom weapons' problem. Kustom Weapons can only be swapped for one another (So you can trade a SupaZzap Gun for a Soopa Lifta Droppa, but not a Big Gunz for one). Second: You can only add one upgrade to each unit in a formation at most, so you couldn't trade 2 weapons for 2 other weapons anyway, only 1 for 1. That seems to fix the primary problem with the Kustom Gargant, where you trade the Big Gunz for something much much nastier. Other then that, it's an interesting set of proposals!
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:41 am 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 14 2007,20:41)
QUOTE
As a note: The 2.0 version of the list seems to fix the 'swap big gunz for kustom weapons' problem. Kustom Weapons can only be swapped for one another (So you can trade a SupaZzap Gun for a Soopa Lifta Droppa, but not a Big Gunz for one).

It's always been that way, since the first version of the list.  There have always been 2 options: 1) Big gun for Soopa or Zzap, like an Oddboy upgrade in the standard list, or 2) swapping any gargant weapons.  You've never been able to swap Big Gunz for just any gargant weapon.

Second: You can only add one upgrade to each unit in a formation at most, so you couldn't trade 2 weapons for 2 other weapons anyway, only 1 for 1. That seems to fix the primary problem with the Kustom Gargant, where you trade the Big Gunz for something much much nastier. Other then that, it's an interesting set of proposals!

The "free" Mek upgrade for the Kustom was removed, but the Mega Kannon exception allows a 2-for-2 swap.  Swapping 2 Ripper Fists on the Krawla for a MegaKannon caused problems.

Now that I look at the text I put up there, the Kustom could take the 2-Zzap configuration, then swap 2 Zzaps for a Mega Kannon.  I wouldn't expect a problem out of that, as the smaller Supastompa can pack that much MW BP without any major issues.

====

IIRC, we also talked at one point about possibly dropping the MegaLobba to 2+d3 BP, didn't we?

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:51 am 
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(nealhunt @ Nov. 14 2007,23:41)
QUOTE
IIRC, we also talked at one point about possibly dropping the MegaLobba to 2+d3 BP, didn't we?

If you possibly can have 3 barrage template or 2 for certain, I would definedly go for Supa Stompa, cheaper and certain 2 template Macrobarrage. Because Megalobba does not have macro Lobba Kustom is already worst killer in Gargant Mob, even it can produve 3 template.

But it kinda fits to orks "risk and reward"-feel... But I know that I would use them after that far less than before.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:29 am 
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Yesterday I tried OGMB with those changes. I fielded:

Great Gargant 800
Gargant 600
Krawla 475
Kustom, zzzap 425
Kustom, lobba 425
Supa Stompa 275

Against Ulthwe. Lost on 3 turn with Take and Hold and Defend the flag. I think that OGMB is lot better now (actually weaker, but because it was overpowered before then it is to the right way). Because Krawlas FF was downgraded to 4+ it actually lost firefight against Eldars (which is as should be). Now Krawla seems lot better. I shot like blind grot in last turn but lost mainly because I did not have enought alive activations and eldars took objectives (horrible shooting: Supastompa doubles and shoots (with gaze of mork too) 2 _broken_ falcons and kill no-one (well, one with blastmarker), Gargant advanced and shot Scorpion, did not hit, Great Gargant Doubles and shoots 4 guardman in forest, scoring 0 hits). There was quite much terrain and Eldars used them sneakily popping up. I lost Krawla and Kustom to blazing wrecks.


It really hampers list building to only get SC from Great Gargant. Orks have so low initiative that they _need_ supreme. But it is bummer to have to use third of your points to GG/SC. I understand that not every army need a Supreme, but every army with initiative 3+ does. I would say: Mek 50 points, 1 Mek in army can be upgraded to Mekboy Big Bos for free (minor change to Mekboy big boss, basically that it still has Mekboyz abilities plus its own). So you have to pay for your SC but you could get it to any Gargant (no Mekboy characters, no Supreme).

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:41 pm 
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Excellent.  Thanks for the feedback.

I really like the Great Gargant requirement for the SC.  The army already gets price breaks, Meks (which are so cheap/effective that there's really no reason they shouldn't be maxed out) and the Grot Attack to make up for issues in its construction (low activations, etc.).  I'd like to keep it if possible.

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