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Who's driving this bus?

 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:48 am 
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I'm of the opinion that some tech guard units -should- remain in the list, but mostly stuff like scouting formations and similar things. Primarily because Titans just don't work very well without proper support, and I'd really -really- hate to field AMTL without any Scout units. But I think they should mostly be regailed to support units which fill niches not filled by the titans and/or knights. You don't need leman russ or ordinatii or ogryn-equivs. Just some scouts, and maybe some ground-holding infantry and you'd be fine, I think. I don't field any of that stuff except 2 formations of Sentinels anyway. Being able to avoid having folks teleport things straight onto my BTS goal on turn 1 is a very nice advantage after all.  :laugh:


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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:57 am 
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Titans and Knights!
Titans and Knights!
Titans and Knights!


I really wouldn't want to do that :) A big difference between me and Blarg (apart from how to do weapons and how to value assault weapons) is that he draws on 2nd edition for inspiration and me 1st edition, leading to many interesting posts and counter posts in the past (anyone read that old forum yet? :) ). I was actually surprised at how different the two editions were. I wouldn't want to see almost 50% of the list be knights. I don't think the Titan Legion list should be titans and knights, but rather Titans and the necessary supporting units (which could feature a unit of knights, but only one type which actually have a role and make sense in the list). One of the defining things I think about the Titans and the weapons system currently in place is that it allows for Titans to be configured for long, medium and close range use. The big gaps are for cheap activations to get the count to at least 7 or so and hold objectives. Knights are what in that? Mini titans with a preference for assault, some more than others?

I note yet no-one has called for robots to come back... :)

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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:06 am 
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Given the current state of affairs perhaps just let people go at it and make the lists they would like to see, rather than continuous debate about what should be in the list or not?  I mean it's a dead line right now... is there something dramatically wrong with having multiple different takes on what it should be - in other words just do it like squats where there are 4 different lists at present. Maybe one or two versions will win out in the end?

Also people actually putting forward their list ideas in concrete form as downloadable files would be a good way to see who is actually prepared to put in the effort as a champ I think. I mean so far it seems we have Chris, Blarg, and even Chroma saying they would give it a crack (apols if I missed anyone). My only thoughts are no way to Chroma :p  You already have plenty of work to do! :D

As for myself I have 6 Warlords, 3 Reavers, 6 warhounds, lots of knights and an Ordinatus Armageddon. I want to be able to use them in EA somehow, not too bothered about the specifics so long as they are balanced and the theme is cool. Can be one list or several I don't care.

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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:21 am 
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(Markconz @ Nov. 15 2007,02:06)
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\As for myself I have 6 Warlords, 3 Reavers, 6 warhounds, lots of knights and an Ordinatus Armageddon. I want to be able to use them in EA somehow, not too bothered about the specifics so long as they are balanced and the theme is cool. Can be one list or several I don't care.

I'm in the same general boat.  Warlord, Reavers, Warhounds, 30+ Knights...

I'd sure like to use them.   :p


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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:26 am 
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You could make el-cheapo 'undergunned' warlords with only 2 weapon systems which cost around 650 points, that's about a 25% point decrease. XD But making them cheap in general? Probably not. They're pretty darn resilient after all!

Edit: The other option I could think of is making a Warlord 'formation' of 2-3 of them for a mild point break. But that'd be pretty silly too! I can only imagine how grotesque 2 Warlords in a formation would be! XD






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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:38 am 
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(Markconz @ Nov. 15 2007,02:06)
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My only thoughts are no way to Chroma :p ?You already have plenty of work to do! :D

Yeah, yeah Markconz!  That's why I'm backing away from this.  *laugh*

Blarg's idea sounds similar enough to my own that I'm just going to leave my concept on the shelf for now.

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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:02 am 
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Well... You could always filed a 5000 point army with 5 Warlords w/ Vet Princepts, Carapace Multilasers and Sacred Icons! It comes out to exactly 5000 points, and would be totally absurd! Maybe drop the sacred icon off one and give one a legate so you'd have a solid BTS and 4 non-BTS titans!

But alas, it's very difficult to field more then one Warlord (Or even one Warlord at times!) in a functional army it seems...


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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:51 am 
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Since its a quiet day here here is something some of you may recognize as most of this is from 2004 as it?s an edited document from pre version 1 days.

In essence I think we should break the list down into three. The core stuff - weapons and, umm, thats about it really - would be common across everyone's variant titan lists.

Below then is may take on the AM and a Titan list which is pretty much ready to go now. If I get a chance later I'll stick it into a pretty document with stats but they aren't necessary to get the gist.

Adeptus Mechanicus
The AM for the purposes of Epic consists of 4 parts ? Titans, Ordinatus, Skitari and Knights. The latter are a PDF force based on AM supply worlds.

The objective
Develop lists as quickly as possible based on 3 years of playtesting and discussion.
I believe the best way to do this is strip things down to their iconic concepts and remove unnecessary variables. Most key list and one frankly close to completion is the Titan Legion list.

Concept
3+ lists. Each centred on a fighting arm.

Titan Legion List(s)
Battle Titans and the necessary supporting troops to make a viable army.

Skitari List(s)
The War Engines and other high tech toys supported by AM infantry. Resist urge to stick all the marine and guard stuff in.

Knight World PDF List(s)
List centered on knights where knight fans can go wild.


Legio Victorum
The following has received dozen of playtests. I do believe it can be finalized relatively quickly. The list is based around titans that can be configured to fulfil most battlefield tasks. In support are specialized units such as infantry for urban areas, flak for AA defence. Note I am for now leaving off all the stats as the doc seems to have suffered some damage over the years and to cut and paste everything now is a bit of a chore. I?ll do it when my wife is not around :) Yes it is short but it is something that is pretty much ready to be published now.

Key questions
? how do knights fit in? What role do they have? Will stripping them out help the list become official?
- what to do with shared Warhound/Reaver weapons? Pre range change it would have been fine but now we have a situation where 60cm range is too good for a warhound, but okay for a Battle Titan. The different names are inelegant. Any other solution?

Weapons list
2 options (leaving aside the scout titan weapon problems)
Option 1 ? as few weapons as possible to reduce playtesting time and get the list finished sharpish, as well as remove redundancy.
Option 2 ? as many as we can think of because we like lots of Titan weapons.
Of course these two aren?t absolute and can be varying levels.

The choice system stays the same; at least 50% of all battle titan weapons must be from the tactical list.

Option 1
Scout weapons
Light? Inferno Gun
Plasma Blastgun
Light? Turbolaser Destructor
Light? Multiple Rocket Launcher
Light? Vulcan Mega-Bolter
Tactical weapons
Gatling Blaster
Inferno Gun
Melta Cannon
Multiple Rocket Launcher
Plasma Cannon
Turbolaser Destructor
Vulcan Mega Bolter
Devotional Bell (Counts as two carapace weapons)
Carapace Landing Pad (Must be mounted on carapace)
Fire Control Centre (Must be mounted on carapace)
Support weapons
One Shot Missile (Must be mounted on carapace)
Plasma Destructor
Quake Cannon
Volcano Cannon
Assault weapons
CC weapon (Must be arm mounted)
FF weapon

Option 2 ? add the following
Scout weapons
Light? Multiple Rocket Launcher
Tactical weapons
Laser Blaster
Support weapons
Replace the one shot missile option with
Barrage Missile (Must be mounted on carapace)
Vortex Missile (Must be mounted on carapace)
Harpoon Missile (Must be mounted on carapace)
Warp Missile (Must be mounted on carapace)
Assault weapons
Replace the assault weapon options with the following
Wrecker (Must be mounted on arm)
Chainfist (Must be mounted on arm)
Power Fist (Must be mounted on arm)
Battle Claw (Must be mounted on arm)
Power Ram (Must be mounted on arm)
Power Saw (Must be mounted on arm)
Trident (Must be mounted on arm)
Laser Burner
Corvus Assault Pod (Must be mounted on arm) ? Note this could require adding Praetorians to the army list.

Army List
The following grew out of the pre version one list I liked combined with a lot of playtests, especially of warhounds. The 50% restriction can go, instead the Battle Titan restriction comes in. This solves the focus and warhound problems in one go.

Core
Warlord
Reaver
Warhound Pack

Support
Up to 2 per Battle Titan taken
0-1 Ordinatus (prob limit it to just Armageddon variant)
Warhound Titan
Skitarii
Flak Battery
Tarantula Sentry Guns (cheap unit, scouts, can be transported by Battle Titans)
AM fleet options (Battleship and Cruiser as per normal)

Should also include?
- Sentinels as cheap mobile scouts. Necessary?
- Paladin Household (should it be Paladins? What role do they have in the list, fast assault?)
- Praetorian Combat Servitors (if including Corvus Assault)

Upgrades
0-1 Free Supreme Commander may be added to any Warlord Battle Titan
Veteran Princeps
Carapace Multilasers

AeroSpace
Up to 20% of the army may be picked from the following
Lightings (interceptor variant)
Marauder Destroyers (to give CAS)

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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:10 am 
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Chris, this is how I always envisioned the list.

Couple of quick points, Battle Titans must have at least 50% Support Weapons. Thought this was the other way around?

Difference in Warhound to Reaver weapon ranges, we could just say that on average the Reaver weapons are at a higher elevation than the Warhound thus giving it a better effective range. Also I have no problems with calling the Warhound weapons Scout and giving them lower ranges for it.

I think that the list should as support options contain Sentinels, Skitarii (Plus transport) and Hydras.

One of the few things I have done for this list is to prepare some Warhounds with Rocket Launchers, so I would really like to see these stay.





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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:38 am 
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I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to justify the range difference as simply being a matter of better power-source, really. Reavers are way bigger then Warhounds, it wouldn't surprise me if their plasma reactors are more powerful and their targeting systems more sophisticated. But yeah, just making them 'light' is fine with me!

I like the list, Chris. I would highly recommend keeping Sentinels in the list in some form or another. They fit with the walker theme, and the Ad Mech have to use -something- as scouts, right? (And don't tell me Warhounds. You can't garison a warhound and I'd really hate to see them gain the actual 'scout' rule!)

Hydras seem more or less a given, as otherwise the only AA in the list is Carapace Multilasers. And while those are nice, it's tough to field enough for them to be particularly effective.

Free Supreme Commander seems reasonable to me. Warlords already cost more then anything else in the list. Having to pay 100 points ontop of that for a SC is a bit harsh. Especially since most of the list is 1+ Init and you aren't likely to be retaining a whole lot!

Over all, like the ideas Chris! Would love to see a complete file for them!


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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:19 am 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Nov. 15 2007,15:10)
QUOTE
Chris, this is how I always envisioned the list.

Possibly because I lack a single original bone in my body and this was one of the original proposals in 2004.

Couple of quick points, Battle Titans must have at least 50% Support Weapons. Thought this was the other way around?


Really, what mistake, i see no mistakes :)


Knights
I would love someone to say in a sentence or two what role these fill in a Titan list. The only one I can possibly see (and have tried to accommodate with poor titan assault choices) is as fast frontal assault formations. 25-30cm move and assault weaponry along with the battle cannon. But how sould they stack up to a FF happy warhound formation or assault equipped Reaver?


Oh and hurricane might hit Bangladesh, so no internet access for me probably in a bit.

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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:28 am 
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Before I start, I'll note my entire reference for Knights is E:A. I never played any of the prior editions of Epic, so I can't comment on their 'fluffy' or 'past experience' style of play for Knights...

I think they work wonderfully as forward assault elements of the army. The current stats aren't bad for them, with the 3/6 unit sizes they can heft out some significant damage... Paladins are a bit too slow, I think, at 20cm to be really functional in that role as things stand, though. I'd actually really like to see Knights become a primarily melee-centric assault force, as opposed to fire-fighting which Titans excel at thanks to their void shields. With Lances being first-strike melee weapons and their other melee weapons going to MW status. Faster then a tricked out melee Reaver, but not as lethal. Slower then Warhounds, but with better hit numbers and attacks for point-values. At least, that's the way I see them working.


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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:34 am 
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That isn't a bad idea that Markconz has: Anyone who wants the job put together a pdf and post that they are interested here with a link to it.

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 Post subject: Who's driving this bus?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:45 am 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 15 2007,16:28)
QUOTE
I think they work wonderfully as forward assault elements of the army. The current stats aren't bad for them, with the 3/6 unit sizes they can heft out some significant damage... Paladins are a bit too slow, I think, at 20cm to be really functional in that role as things stand, though. I'd actually really like to see Knights become a primarily melee-centric assault force, as opposed to fire-fighting which Titans excel at thanks to their void shields. With Lances being first-strike melee weapons and their other melee weapons going to MW status. Faster then a tricked out melee Reaver, but not as lethal. Slower then Warhounds, but with better hit numbers and attacks for point-values. At least, that's the way I see them working.

Yeah, that's about the only thing left for them. Movement wise the idea of infiltrate kept coming up only to go away again. Is  move 25cm or infiltrate and 20cm the way to go? Remember as WE they can barge and sorta infiltrate already.

Really though if all the knight fans have strong ideas they should say them and say how those knights fit in with the Titans. I've always seen how they can work in their own list, but as a adjunct I'm a bit baffled.

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