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[Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
Markconz
 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:16 am 
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(Hena @ Nov. 11 2007,10:35)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ Nov. 11 2007,10:57)
QUOTE

(Hena @ Nov. 11 2007,06:57)
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(Markconz @ Nov. 11 2007,09:18)
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(Hena @ Nov. 11 2007,06:06)
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That broken march only works with fearless units. So basically an all Carnifex or Trygon formations. Bio titans can do it as well, but they cannot clip as they are the whole formation themselves.

What?? Any unit can do it provided it has a decent FF or engage move.

If they are non fearless, they cannot come within 15cm of the enemy to give support fire (with withdrawal move). But the main point is that if they are non fearless when they engage on instinctive, they die when they lose the assault (which was the objective on the instinctive march).

A unit breaks and becomes instinctive, gets free moves and attacks something. Who cares if they die on instinctive if they lose? That is a very minor point in the overall problem and is definitely NOT the main point at all.

In fact I am shocked you would even try and argue this.

What? What you do with a formation that does not exist?

Once again what on earth are you talking about?

The swarm doesn't exist IF it loses it's assault WHILE instinctive. ITS TOO LATE BY THEN. It's probably already ripped something to pieces, and there is no guarantee it will die even then (especially not if the bug player has half a brain in choosing targets).

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Ilushia
 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:24 am 
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(Markconz @ Nov. 11 2007,22:08)
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Just for example, Marines and Eldar live for clipping FF attacks. Yet doing this successfully under 8.4 engage rules,  is just asking for swarms to race off to attack artillery or other vulnerable units of choice.

Am I the only one who, when seeing this comment, thinks 'well, then, don't clipping assault the tyranids. Properly assault them, since breaking them is not enough!' or possibly 'so clip them -then assault them with something else-! A double-assault leads to them not existing any more, right?'

Again: I haven't played with/against tyranids, so feel free to ignore me. Just seems like an excellent example where using the same tactics against different armies doesn't work very well, to me.
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Markconz
 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:57 am 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 12 2007,02:24)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ Nov. 11 2007,22:08)
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Just for example, Marines and Eldar live for clipping FF attacks. Yet doing this successfully under 8.4 engage rules,  is just asking for swarms to race off to attack artillery or other vulnerable units of choice.

Am I the only one who, when seeing this comment, thinks 'well, then, don't clipping assault the tyranids. Properly assault them, since breaking them is not enough!' or possibly 'so clip them -then assault them with something else-! A double-assault leads to them not existing any more, right?'

Again: I haven't played with/against tyranids, so feel free to ignore me. Just seems like an excellent example where using the same tactics against different armies doesn't work very well, to me.

Sorry, just forget the 'clipping', it doesn't have to be a clipping FF at all.

The problem is that damaging the tyranids (as opposed to leaving them alone or even losing to them) gives them an extra long charge move... and this is supposedly fine.

No I don't think so. The whole idea is just whacky.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:04 am 
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(Hena @ Nov. 12 2007,05:24)
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(Markconz @ Nov. 12 2007,05:16)
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Once again what on earth are you talking about?

The swarm doesn't exist IF it loses it's assault WHILE instinctive. ITS TOO LATE BY THEN. It's probably already ripped something to pieces, and there is no guarantee it will die even then (especially not if the bug player has half a brain in choosing targets).

"Broken march". You started this by commenting that assault on instinctive allows broken march. That, by default, means that you are instinctive when you assault. And thus this

(Markconz @ Nov. 11 2007,08:55)
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...unless you actually want to allow engages while instinctive which has its own set of serious problems and oddities (the 'broken march problem' just for a start):
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....d224436

is wrong.

Ok I really do have no idea what you are on about, sorry.

Just to be clear the problem is exactly what I said in my last post, and previously here:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....d224436
[/quote]

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:33 am 
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Opinion of non-Tyranid-player: Spawning sucks. I hate to kill my enemies twice.

I would only allow spawning of smallest of critters, basically just ?gaunts. :)

Spawning of LV:s or AV:s is just annoying and absurd.

Does this spawning have any real background to allow it, other than "they have always spawned".

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:11 pm 
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(Hena @ Nov. 12 2007,09:57)
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It represents the endless stream of critters flowing towards enemy. Phase IV is quite far in the assault and new critters are created continuously in the background to replenish losses.

Yes,  in the_background_, just like Ork Waagh or endles convoys of Krieg Soldiers from orbit. I dont think that my 3000 points of Bad Moon is their full WAAAGH!, it is just 3000 points of it, they have lots of orks, stompas and things in the background. Why not let orks spawn too? There are quite frigging many of them too.

If I want to represent 10000 orks running shouting across table I take 2000 stands of orks, when they get shot apart they just dont "spawn". Just like 10000 gaunts, use 2000 stands to represent them. If orks get more people from orbit they can make planetfall or use some other method of deployment from reserve. Just like tyranids should.  

I just think that tyranids have unnecessary spawning, but because it has so long been that way it is heresy to even think that they could work without it. If you want to field army of 1000 gaunts, use 1000 gaunts, dont use 500 which "spawns" more.

__

Gamewise my biggest problem is spawning of anything else than gaunts. Gaunts can spawn all they want, but other spawning is strange. If carnifex gets shot apart at his deployment zone, then where did that carnifex popped in third turn near enemy blitz after "spawned back to life by Tyrant AV swarm"?

Why would everybody think that it would be absurd to have Land Raider to come back alive 120 cm from its destruction site, when same goes without question when some big tyranid creature is in question?

Would people feel wrong to have ork Waagh list that has spawning Stompas?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:15 pm 
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Spawning Hierodules is still impossible to justify.

Trygons I can see (They burrow up from underground), but Hierodules?

Nope, sorry.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:17 pm 
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I thought spawning represented three things. Constant drops from orbit, rogue creatures and an 'endless tide' or greeblies from the reserves.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:27 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 12 2007,11:15)
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Trygons I can see (They burrow up from underground), but Hierodules?

I dont know can they teleport, but that would sound reasonable. But after they get shot apart they should be dead, not spawnable. If tyranids have more than 1 trygon awailable, they should then take more trygons, not spawn them back, just like everybody else. :)


(Teh Real Chris @ Nov. 12 2007,11:17)
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Constant drops from orbit, rogue creatures and an 'endless tide' or greeblies from the reserves


We have rules for orbit drops, even rules for free planetfall. Nothing wrong in them. Rogue gaunts ok, but "Rogue Carnifex"? Endles tide can be represented with Uge Mobs of Gaunts.

So nothing that old rules cant handle, so why overly complicated with spawning rules?

And points are almost impossible to compare with other races. If you had Tyranid Creature with same statline as Land Raider, how much should it cost if you could kill and use it again possibly 4 times?




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:46 pm 
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You realise we don't have tose rules? We have rules for formations doing that, not reinforcements to formations.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:53 pm 
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Why 2 stands of ork boyz cant join forces with Uge Mob of Nobz? That is very unfluffy, those nobs would not allow those boyz to be alone. Why Nob cant take with him some "rogue orks" or orks that have been sended running and gone hiding?

If every other race can live with it then tyranids should too.

But does tyranids have that synapse thing that allows them to "mob up" and trade units between formations?

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