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[Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Markconz

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:55 am

Purestrain

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

Seeing repetition of these same strawman arguments against the streamlined rules really does make me think my time is much better invested elsewhere. They have been refuted before by myself and others.

1. The 'automatic spawning' criticism is absurd quibbling when you look at the real numbers:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....d224320

2. Likewise criticisms about Tyranids being able to be 'broken' is getting hung up about a name more than anything else:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....d224319
...unless you actually want to allow engages while instinctive which has its own set of serious problems and oddities (the 'broken march problem' just for a start):
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....d224436

Please actually look at the OUTCOMES the rules generate rather than continuing to be blinded by the names and of the mechanics and their micro level details. Like Einstein said - everything should be made as simple as possible but not simpler. I?m seeing precious little of that philosophy here.

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Markconz

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:13 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Chroma @ Nov. 10 2007,22:13)

QUOTE

There is no "extensive list of modifiers", it's Rally test plus Synapse value, that's it.

To borrow from Kragetora

--First, you roll to Rally, with all modifiers.
--Then, you divide that roll in half if enemy are within 30cm. Otherwise, thats how many points you get.
--Then you add in Synapse.
--Then you add in extra Synapse.
--Finally you actually choose and return models to the table.

Synapse is a separate list of modifiers to consult on top of rally test modifiers. The most irritating thing is that the convolution of it all is so futile given the similar variation in end results to the more streamlined rules.

Tyranids rally automatically, yet you want to have an exceedingly over the top mechanism to produce some small variation in results for spawning. If people are going to complain about anything it will be the automatic rally more than the possibility of a single extra gaunt.

Sorry but it seems you must have lost your mind or something writing your 101 Epicomp lists to think this is a good idea ...

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Markconz

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:18 am

Purestrain

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Hena @ Nov. 11 2007,06:06)

QUOTE

That broken march only works with fearless units. So basically an all Carnifex or Trygon formations. Bio titans can do it as well, but they cannot clip as they are the whole formation themselves.

What?? Any unit can do it provided it has a decent FF or engage move.

Your spawning has serious problems in spawning amounts. Tyrant cannot spawn meat shield anymore to itself.

'

Yes I know you want to spawn 'tyranid tanks' in the face of the enemy. I don't think that is a good idea or necessary for the lesser formations.

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Ilushia

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:29 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

Ya know, I do see one potential issue with this rule. That being: Formations with large rally modifiers (needing, say, 4+ to rally) are always going to generate fairly large numbers of spawning points if they generate any at all. Which seems rather odd, at least to me. Making the results be based on the actual Rally roll leads to a weird all-or-nothing situation where you have a formation which has a bad rally number either do nothing (And likely be really screwed next turn) or roll well and generate a whole bunch of spawning points at once and likely pull their rears out of the fire in a single go... Not to say it's necessarially -bad-, just weird.

Never played with/against Tyranids, so I can't claim much on balance of any of the rules for them. Just that the effect of making it based on the rally roll feels odd, to me at least. Even rallying from Broken doesn't depend on what number you roll, so long as you succeed!

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Markconz

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:43 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Kagetora @ Nov. 10 2007,22:48)

QUOTE

BTW, Markconz...

I don't particularly think that there is anything wrong with your ruleset for Instinctive/Broken units, but bear in mind, its vastly more powerful than the current one. The simple fact that 'Nids never suffer in any way from BM's in an assault pumps them up quite a bit.

Vastly more powerful? If anything I was concerned the overall effect made tyranids too weak (compared to 8.4)...

Interesting. I mean they don't get to engage while broken/instinctive under the more streamlined rules(?).

I also am not keen on the fact that Tyranid formations can actually be fully Broken. That really doesn't seem very fluffy.

As I said before the idea they can be 'fully broken' is not true (and the difference from 8.3 is almost nothing, it's only the problematic engage in 8.4 that causes a real difference). Besides which many tyranids can actually break (fall back) in 40k, so why would it not be fluffy in any case?

Also, I believe the complaint about the current Instinctive rules was that they were confusing. It took me less than 30 seconds to explain them to my last 2 opponents, and that was that. I really don't think thats a valid complaint.

Once again, this seems to be the opposite of what most other people have said. In fact it was the host of objections from other people in the first place that led me to attempt a streamlining of the rules that still maintained the essence of Chroma's proposal.

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Markconz

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:57 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand

(Hena @ Nov. 11 2007,06:57)

QUOTE

(Markconz @ Nov. 11 2007,09:18)

QUOTE

(Hena @ Nov. 11 2007,06:06)

QUOTE

That broken march only works with fearless units. So basically an all Carnifex or Trygon formations. Bio titans can do it as well, but they cannot clip as they are the whole formation themselves.

What?? Any unit can do it provided it has a decent FF or engage move.

If they are non fearless, they cannot come within 15cm of the enemy to give support fire (with withdrawal move). But the main point is that if they are non fearless when they engage on instinctive, they die when they lose the assault (which was the objective on the instinctive march).

A unit breaks and becomes instinctive, gets free moves and attacks something. Who cares if they die on instinctive if they lose? That is a very minor point in the overall problem and is definitely NOT the main point at all.

In fact I am shocked you would even try and argue this.

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Markconz

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:15 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Hena @ Nov. 11 2007,07:00)

QUOTE

Yes, but the rules are getting streamlined without needing to change the rules. That's the whole point of the iterative approach. First iteration is more complex, later ones aren't that complex anymore.

If only that were true.

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Chroma

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:33 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Markconz @ Nov. 11 2007,07:13)

QUOTE

Sorry but ?it seems you must have lost your mind or something writing your 101 Epicomp lists to think this is a good idea ... ?

No, I lost my mind *before* I did up those army lists.

If spawning is so difficult a thing to understand, with convoluted math (and rolling 2d3 is still, "Divide by 2, round up, add together!), what about changing it to something like the Void Shield rule... one "automatic" spawn point in the End Phase, and Tyranids get to use the "regroup" option finally. ?Give leader to a couple of Synapse creatures, keep the spawn (x) values for various Broods and be done with it if we want a mechanism that (almost) everyone knows?

Markconz, if you want "simplicity" and ease-of-use, what's wrong with fixed values for every Synapse creature as in 8.4? ?The Tyranid player knows exactly how many spawn points they're getting and can plan ahead to what they want, until waiting to have to make those decisions in the End Phase; why does there need to be a random element at all?

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Kagetora

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:31 pm

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Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:45 pm
Posts: 85

(Markconz @ Nov. 11 2007,08:57)

QUOTE

[quote="Hena,Nov. 11 2007,06:57"][quote=Markconz,Nov. 11 2007,09:18A unit breaks and becomes instinctive, gets free moves and attacks something. Who cares if they die on instinctive if they lose? That is a very minor point in the overall problem and is definitely NOT the main point at all.

In fact I am shocked you would even try and argue this.

Wow. Sorry, but thats not my experience at all. Not even close.

What I end up with are Instinctive Genestealers and Lictors, usually very small number of them, and most of the time from Shooting. I also have ended up with Instinctive Warrior swarms and Tyrant/Carni/Haru or Mal swarms.

So, yes, while Instinctive I may Engage the enemy, IF I haven't acted yet that turn. I could also led Support to another Engagement IF I happen to have a FF value on my model.

So, lets see...here's a perfect example of what happened the other night.

My Warrior swarm was Engaged by the enemy and thrashed soundly. They lost all but the 3 Warriors and 2 Gargoyles. I am allowed a Withdrawl move, and I haven't acted yet this turn.

My choices: Fall back and hope to hide my Synapse in cover and Respawn some units. Or, Withdraw TOWARDS the enemy, and hope to either roll a 3+ to Engage or Support some other Engagement.

Wow. Again, Wow. If YOU are picking the latter option, I, for one, would make you pay dearly for it. You would simply be picking up those leftovers after my next activation and I would be that much closer to my BTS goal.

Or, better yet...the game I had where I had 1 Genestealer running around on his own, and 2 Lictors doing the same. Shall I launch some Engagements with these guys? Or make sure they are within 15cm so they can lend Supporting fire?

I don't know what actually happens in your games, but, to me, you are complaining about something that is going to happen once in a blue moon.

First, you have to be Engaged by the enemy.
Second, you have to be beaten by the enemy, and survive.
Third, you have to have enough left to actually be a viable Swarm, then plow yourself even farther into the teeth of the enemy.
Fourth, you either have to successfully Activate that same unit to Engage (losing everything if you lose), or launch another Engagement within 15cm of it, if it even has a FF value.

How often does this actually happen? Ever?

Talk about a strawman argument...

I, personally, like the fact that it is even possible. If I happen to find myself in that situation, and decide I want to launch a suicidal charge with a Swarm, well, I think thats pretty cool. I also don't think its particularly complex.

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Markconz

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:08 am

Purestrain

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Kagetora @ Nov. 11 2007,16:31)

QUOTE

How often does this actually happen? Ever?

Sorry but that post really did sound like a lack of experience with tyranids and other armies.

Just for example, Marines and Eldar live for clipping FF attacks. Yet doing this successfully under 8.4 engage rules, is just asking for swarms to race off to attack artillery or other vulnerable units of choice.

In other words due to losing the bugs get a heap of extra movement and opportunity for attacks on targets they would not have been able to attack had they won the assault or been left alone.

This is not a rare occurrence at all and this problem has been pointed out before by others, and in fact the existing 8.4 engage rule modifier was my suggestion to fix it in response to those criticisms - except that I have since decided that it is not enough, and that the idea is just too problematic, as stated here:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....d224436

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