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[BatRep] Panzees vs Popcorn
corey3750
 Post subject: [BatRep] Panzees vs Popcorn
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:34 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 10 2007,09:36)
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Very interesting!


Looks like the new rallying rules & strategy rating (Four Biel-Tan strategy wins in a row) affected the game, providing a closer result than would have happened under previously versions of the list.

I would say that I would have isolated each end of the Eldar line with the turn 1 teleports rather than forming a line across the front of him.

actually, the real secret with the Necron is Patience.

But you're correct, it would have been better to hit the ends than come straight up the middle like that :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: [BatRep] Panzees vs Popcorn
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:42 pm 
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(corey3750 @ Nov. 09 2007,15:34)
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But you're correct, it would have been better to hit the ends than come straight up the middle like that :)

Well, one end was anchored with Revenant Titans and one was anchored with a big firefighty Aspect Warhost... *laugh*

I thought splitting my forces would've been bad, this was the first time I've played with "popcorn", so I'll see what I can do next time!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [BatRep] Panzees vs Popcorn
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:45 pm 
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actually, the real secret with the Necron is Patience.


Uh huh.

Under the old strategy rating this army would have pwned.

This is a good change then!

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corey3750
 Post subject: [BatRep] Panzees vs Popcorn
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:02 pm 
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I have to say, the Eldar playing was pretty good.  It would have devastated most armies.

I would have done things a little bit differently against the Necron, but that's just me :)

I'd have kept the Revenants in the center to give them a better reaction option, and used them to hunt Monoliths.   In that placement they could sustain fire to cover the entire line.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [BatRep] Panzees vs Popcorn
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:17 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 09 2007,15:45)
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Under the old strategy rating this army would have pwned.

This is a good change then!

Another change that had a significant effect was the new fearless rules in the Codex Markconz.  It prevented broken Monoliths from zipping right up against important targets deep in enemy lines.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [BatRep] Panzees vs Popcorn
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:53 pm 
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Cool.

Of course, you know I have to ask a ton of strategic and tactical questions.  I realize it was your first game but I'm wondering about your thought processes.

For the army list:
Why Obelisks with every Monolith?
Why not a Warbarque SC?
Why no Venator?

It would seem to me that you could drop some of the Obelisks and Phalanx upgrades, consolidate Obelisks into a few larger Monolith formations so they have more durability, and squeeze in a teleporting scout formation and a Warbarque.  That would give a few tough portal formations, a ton of cheap mono-monos, and another couple of more durable formations (Venators and Warbarque), not to mention the SC.

For the game:

Why deploy where you did?  If you knew the Eldar SC was off-board in an assault formation, that means the Wraithgate is a potential source of threat.

Why deploy so close together?  The BMs from being in support are going to be a problem for a popcorn list.  You can deploy with depth and avoid a substantial amount of that - something like 2/3 of the Monoliths forward and 1/3 about 15cm back as reinforcement, out of the support-BM range.

When Mono 7 broke on the teleport, why didn't you reposition it?  I can sort of see the close deployment for FF support purposes, but once broken they don't provide support fire.  You might as well run it off someplace where the portal is more of a threat and/or where its ZoC can be a nuisance.

On Turn 2, why did you drop right in the middle of a high threat zone?  It seemed the Eldar had outlying formations that would have been good targets for wipeout, while forcing their other formations to do more maneuver to respond.

===

I think I agree with E&C.  The Eldar had a pretty strong defensive setup, but it had a weakness.  All the best FF support was slow and on one flank - 2 Guardian Hosts, unmounted aspects, and the far flanking Wraithgate.  The armor around the Revenants had far less inter-supporting capability.  That would have been the optimal point of attack.

I understand the fear of Revenants, but they're just MW, which is like normal fire against 4+LM.  They aren't a serious threat against Monoliths, so that means until your troops come out anything they did would waste a lot of firepower.

That would also have allowed a deployment outside of all the major FF support range (Guardians and Aspects).  Forcing those infantry formations to move in order to support would have reduced the amount of offense the Eldar could bring to bear on Turn 1.  And, of course, I already mentioned the Spears being stuck in the gate.  They only had a 45-50cm threat range from the Wraithgate so if you can stay farther away than that, they would be neutralized for a turn (as far as assault - 80-85cm if all they want to do is support someone else).

The "peeling an onion" method would also apply in later turns.  Take the outer layer before digging for the deeper stuff.  If they bring out their deeper units to come after you, great.  Anything which sticks its nose out becomes a potential target.

I think a bit more depth of deployment and a little less aggressive play will make a world of difference.

Then again, you've played it and I haven't, so maybe I'm crocked...  :;):

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corey3750
 Post subject: [BatRep] Panzees vs Popcorn
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:05 pm 
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well, the army building was an attempt to make the Popcorn army.  Any of those other units would have detracted from the "popcorn" natures of that army.

But I concur with you tactical analysis.  The Revenants are a danger only because of the number of shots they put out.  Against a fully upgraded Monolith formation, this is not a big deal... against a popcorn Monolith formation;  well luck will only carry you so far in that many dice rolls.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [BatRep] Panzees vs Popcorn
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:06 am 
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(corey3750 @ Nov. 09 2007,20:05)
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well, the army building was an attempt to make the Popcorn army.  Any of those other units would have detracted from the "popcorn" natures of that army.

It could have come out with the same number of formations or even one more.

4 Phalanx w/ Pariah
8 Monoliths
Venator
Warbarque SC (BTS)
2 Pylons
2640 points, 16 activations.

Chroma's had 15 at 3000 but was very similar.

The Phalanxes aren't quite as tough as Chroma's big ones, but you gain a tough SC and a teleporting-scout Venator formation which have some staying power in addition to the Phalanxes.  Same number of portals and enough spare points to do a bunch of mono-ob formations like Chroma did, with only one solo Monolith.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [BatRep] Panzees vs Popcorn
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:13 am 
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(nealhunt @ Nov. 10 2007,01:06)
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8 Obelisks

I assume you mean "Monoliths" here Neal?

And I didn't want a powergamer popcorn army... *laugh*  It was insane enough looking as it was that my opponent was ready *not* to play against it... *laugh*

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [BatRep] Panzees vs Popcorn
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:18 am 
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Heh.  Yeah.  Monoliths.  Edited.

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