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Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:00 am 
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I have been taking a look at Emperor's Children list (v2) and there is some things I would change on it based on changes in other lists (most probably done after this list, which seems quite old..)

 - questor 275, subjugator 225
 - daemon knights (6) 400
 - bikes (6) 300  
 - Land raiders 85 apiece, Upgrade to be 'up to 6 land raiders'
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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:03 pm 
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The questor and subjugator is something that will probably happen. Would you like to give your reasoning for the others?
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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:14 pm 
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Sure.
Daemon Knights: because 4 cost 275, 6 could be something like 412.5 - rounded down by gut feeling ("when would I consider them" =)
Bikes: based on Space Marine bike prices. A bit better (FF)
Land Raider: as reduced in Space Marine list  (with my opinion that ATSKNF ~= fearless)
(on the upgarde: remove the 'up to' part, make it 500 for 6)

Alternatively I have played with an idea to make CUlt Marine lists based on the Black Legion list (to get rid of "everybody got fearless" -thing). Just remove things like Death Wheels etc and replace with that patron's daemon engines. Naturally cult marines etc. limited to that patron.

Thus, the Emperor's Children could be something like (when compared to Black Legion):

Removed:
 Raptor Cult
 Black Legion Assault Company
 Feral Titan

Added:
 Noise Marine retinue (300 for 6 including warlord)
 Daemon Knights (400 for 6)
 Questor/Subjugator Titan Packs (1-2 per pack, 275/225 each)

Modified:
 Bikes: 225 for 6
 Forlorn: ("Legionnaires") can be taken per either retinue.
     +60 pts for +2 units.

Upgrades:
 Any Noise Marine can be replaced with Possessed

Non-used units in EC list: Noise Marine Havocs,  Emperor's Children Chosen, Predator and Bikes, Debaser.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:20 pm 
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(rpr @ Nov. 01 2007,22:14)
QUOTE
Alternatively I have played with an idea to make CUlt Marine lists based on the Black Legion list (to get rid of "everybody got fearless" -thing). Just remove things like Death Wheels etc and replace with that patron's daemon engines. Naturally cult marines etc. limited to that patron.

I *really* like this idea!

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colonel_sponsz
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:32 am 
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That's not too far off how I've been playing my Slannesh Black Legion army - off the peg with Deamon engines so I'd go along with your idea to base the factions on the BL list.  

Not too sure how powerful a formation of six Deamon Knights would be, I've currently only got four painted and they are pretty handy at that size.

The only thing I would really take issue with is your assertion that ATSKNF ~= fearless.  I've regularly gone toe toe with Marine Land Raiders and not breaking is more use than not running!

Orde

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:03 am 
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(rpr @ Nov. 01 2007,22:14)
QUOTE
Alternatively I have played with an idea to make CUlt Marine lists based on the Black Legion list (to get rid of "everybody got fearless" -thing). Just remove things like Death Wheels etc and replace with that patron's daemon engines. Naturally cult marines etc. limited to that patron.

Good idea if you want to make Black Legion list with some dedication to Slaanesh. But non-fearles Emperors Childrens would be something else than Emperors Childrens. Make fan list and give it some pleasureoriented Renegade name.

Gamewise I would play with list like that, but fluffwise I want Emperors Childrens, not any Emperors Children-Lite. :)

Actually my Slaanesh army is not in the colors of EC, so they are some Renegade Chapter so to them that would be great list (they are purple-gold).


Would they have Obliterators?


I am OK with Cult list with non-fearles marines, just label them as Renegades and dont say they are EC, DG, WE or TS. But Original Traitor Kult Marines are Fearless, every one of them. If that is bad at games, then dont do lists about them.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:57 pm 
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Its a lovely idea for simple variant lists. Whether or not they are Emperors children is another matter.

You could bring out fairly easily all 4 powers that way. If you have time to be doing that much playtesting want to give it a go?

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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:42 am 
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I actually do not have problem with that "all are fearless" - but will have my own tests. Actually, if it is a problem, it is more like a generic problem with objective/fall back rules than in "all are fearless" -concept. So in that sense if all Emperor's Children should be fearless fluff-wise, I will go on that direction and keep using them that way.

In general, cult marine armies do not seem so powerful as they have this problem of low activation count (nothign cheap in their lists) and very poor AA (which gets worse if defiler is changed)..
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:30 am 
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Following rpr's batrep and picking up some more Noise Marines myself, I had another look at this list.

From my point of view I would drop Fearless & Scout from the legionnaires, thus treating these as newer (hundred year old or so) initiates, but still as likely to break as normal Chaos Marines and add back in a Forlorn Hope under the same restrictions as the BL list.

To ease the playtesting I would probably drop posessed as well.

However I want to paint some figures up first and have a few games before commenting on them further.




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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:27 pm 
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(Hena @ Nov. 14 2007,10:55)
QUOTE
(of course fearless scouts would be nasty here)

Which are currently Legoinnaires.

I'm starting to go off this formation. A restriction and dropping of Fearless or as I previously posted.

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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:46 pm 
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(Hena @ Nov. 14 2007,12:55)
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Somehow I missed this. But why would the problem be with withdrawal/objective rules? When broken you can't take objective so that isn't a problem. The withdrawal isn't helpful as the fearless causes those rules to vanish.

The problem is that even without fearless a broken formation can withdraw through enemies to block objective using their ZoC - no they cannot contest or claim it, but it is not that hard to stop enemy for coming within 15cm of it..

If the formation is not fearless, it is easier to remove, but still requires action or several ones - instead that you could simply march to claim the objective, the routed units now block the path. And yes, this is observed in almost every game and there has not been fearless present...
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:24 pm 
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Removing the "Fearless withdraw charge" possibility is a substantial hit as compared to when the lists were originally drafted.

Also, I think that the "all fearless" issue might be mitigated by the smaller formation size.  Perhaps the per-unit increase for a 6-unit formation doesn't need to be quite as high as for, say, a 9-unit Thousand Sons formation.  Both the lower threshold to break the formation and the lower potential frontage controlled by a broken Fearless formation are reduced.

I think all the Fearless formations could probably stand to be reviewed for point costs, especially the smaller ones.

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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:59 pm 
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..and when we talk about all-fearless armies, they are less "special threat" than many other armies like Tyranids or Necron..

When these cult marine all-fearless armies start to win (except occassionally) then I would be worried. Right now they lose most of the time, Black Legion is much better... their all-fearless is just a "different aspect" which changes the normal engagement rules, and thus in itself sounds like a super-power.
Most of the time ATSKNF is far more irritating special power..

If it would be fluffwise to have non-fearless Legionnaires, then that would be logical step. But worst thing to do is to change epic armies every time they release something new to WH40k.. (now I am mainly talking about Defilers... ;)  .. unless they start to release new figs to epic, too.

Just my opinion, of course. I do not care how they (i.e. cult marine armies) turn out as long as the composition is not changed too much, they sound fluffwise good enough, and point costs are balanced when compared to other armies..
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