| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:45 pm
Posts: 85
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I dunno...I guess you guys play a very different game than I do, at least when it comes to 40k.
Lictors in a 40k army, in my experience, anyway, are exactly that...an all-or-nothing unit. They pop out of cover, assault something nearby, hopefully do a significant amount of damage, then are shot to pieces by a single Krak Missile or Meltagun auto-killing them when they are out of Synapse range.
The key seems to be the chosen target. Its usually some stationary vehicle or squad in the back that is tearing aprt the Tyranids as they approach...Leman Russ, Devastator Squad, Dark Reapers, etc.
Even the fluff I have read supports this...they rove far ahead of the Tyranid lines seeking prey for them, waiting to strike until they simply uncoil from some piece of terrain and obliterate a squad or vehicle.
I think the Epic rules represent this perfectly. They Teleport in far beyond the Tyranid main lines and attempt to obliterate some meaningful target Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Its DEFINITELY an all-or-nothing gamble, and when it fails, it hurts. They aren't cheap by any means, and its one less Independent formation you have left to hold Objectives.
If it always works for you, you must be playing IG players all the time. Try Teleporting in some 5+ save creatures with a Strategy Rating of 1 against Marines or Eldar some time. See how long they last if you actually put them somewhere to threaten the enemy. You'll just be picking them up.
PLENTY of armies have all-or-nothing style units. That shouldn't even really be an issue or a concern.
As far as their stats go, well, I've always thought the Carnifex is woefully underrepresented in these rules. For those of you who play 40k, you know...and for those of you who don't, let me assure you: its a helluva lot harder to bring down a Tyranid MC of any type (or a Wraithlord, Greater Daemon, or Talos) than it is to kill ANY tank in the game, Land Raiders included. A single Lascannon/Railgun/Brightlance can rip a tank to shreds...but I guarantee you will need at least 4 such hits to take down ANY Carnifex.
I think that is represented pathetically in Epic, with a Carnifex with nothing but a 3+ save. Compare that to those same vehicles that have a 4+ RA. Completely backwards from 40k, to be sure.
Their offensive power is lackluster as well. I have YET to see ANY Armored Target survive an Assault from a Carnifex (S10, 2d6 AP per attack), yet fully half the hits are saved by typical armored targets in Epic. A single MW attack does not do them justice.
But, all of that said, I think the Carnifex is appropriately done in the Epic list, purely from a standpoint of game-balance. But don't kid yourself...they definitely don't match their fluff OR their abilities in 40k.
So why is that such a big concern with the Lictor?
Is the Lictor better than in 40k? Perhaps. Thats debatable, IMO. So, what would you propose doing with him? Nerfing the crap out of his attacks? Losing the MW?
What is he then...nothing but a Genestealer that Teleports. How does THAT fit the fluff/40k mold? It doesn't. And all that will do is turn him from an all-or-nothing unit into a nothing-or-nothing unit. I don't think thats the way to go.
And if he doesn't Teleport anymore, how does THAT represent a Lictor's stealth and ranging far ahead of the lines? Again, it doesn't. So do we come up with more Special Rules for them? I thought we were trying to avoid that.
As for packs of Lictors roaming the fields, well, theres ZERO choice there. Either you include them as packs, or you don't include them at all. You can't have single individual Lictors roaming the battlefields, or it becomes an Activation nightmare. Not to mention they would never actually DO anything.
Not everything can be a direct, 1-to-1 correlation between Epic, 40k, and the Fluff. They are three different things, and, within the framework of the Epic rules, you have to do the best you can to represent these other two factors.
I think that has been done in the case of the Lictors.
Lets look at the main points of contention:
Deployability: Lictors are supposed to be far ahead of the lines, wreaking havoc and sowing confusion. Unless you make up a new Special Rule, Teleport is all we have to work with. Thats it. Deal with it.
Swarms of Lictors: Again, in the Epic Mechanics, you can't have cheap individuals roaming freely. Too many Activations. Lictors are supposed to be "lone hunters," and I think that very small Swarms (2-5 or 2-6) in very limited numbers (0-2), combined with the Scout rule, represents this as well as can be expected with existing Epic rules.
All-or-Nothing: That is always going to be the nature of Deep Striking, Teleporting, Planetfalling, Air-Assaulting units that drop in far from support. Thats actually their PURPOSE, IMO...can you earn back their points and take out an important target before you lose them? Its what they do, plain and simple.
Defensive Power: Well, +2 Cover Saves is really cool in 40k, but unwieldy in Epic. Remember, he IS only T4 with a 5+ armor save. I think a 5+ RA save would be cool, but the 6+ Inv save really represents those "where the hell is it" chameleonic scales as well. I'm on the fence here. I could go either way on this issue.
Offensive Power: Well, a Lictor is generally better than a Genestealer OR a Warrior (Strength 6!, Rending Claws, Scything Talons) in close combat, although not as good as an MC. I definitely believe a single MW attack is warranted in addition to its normal attack. Again, its a matter of Epic rules:
Hormagaunt: 1 normal attack.
Genestealer: 2 normal attacks.
Warrior: 2 normal attacks + a ranged attack
Lictor: 1 normal attack, 1 MW attack (S6 Rending Claws)
That is a VERY logical progression. But then the poor Carnifex gets stuck not going up a rung on the ladder. Thats NOT the Lictor's fault. Maybe Carnifex should be more expensive and get 2 MW attacks. Or, at the very least, a 4+ RA save back. They are supposed to be hard to kill, after all. Make them a slower Haruspex with 1 MW attack instead of 2. It returns to the logical progression...Gaunt, Stealer, Warrior/Lictor, Fex (same as a Lictor with much better armor), Spex, and then onto the WE's.
But all of that is pure Epic Game Mechanics, and, as I said, its a logical and useful progression. Nothing is generally overpowered if it is point-costed correctly. Perhaps 3 Carnifex should cost 125 points but come with a 4+ RA save.
Honestly...if I had designed these rules originally, thats exactly the route I would have taken. I would first strive to emulate the fluff/40k rules as closely as I could within the framework of the Epic Rules, then I would have simply worried about appropriate point costs, NOT stats.
When you start reversing the process (i.e. looking at costs then nerfing to match them, instead of raising costs to match abilities), well, thats where this entire Epic Rules Review process bogs down into oblivion, if you ask me.
Keep it simple.
Still, all of that said, I can't guarantee that, if I had written the original file, I would have given the Lictors a MW attack, despite the fact that I think its appropriate.
I might have gone with +2 normal attacks instead, giving them 3 total. Again, a step above Genestealers, on Par with Warriors (losing a ranged attack for another CC attack), a notch below Fex. But I would have made the Fex better, as I described above, as well. 3+ save just doesn't do the "living battering ram" justice, especially when everything that is usually around him has a better save (Haruspex, Tyrants, etc.).
I understand what you are saying about the "all-or-nothing" thing, I really do. I'm just not sure its actually a PROBLEM. 
If it really is, and everyone else agrees with you that it is, then I'd go along these routes:
Lictor: 0-2 Swarms, 2-5 per Swarm
Inf, 15cm move, 4+ save, CC3+, FF -, Scything Talons (Base Contact Range, Assault Weapon, +2 Attacks), Special: First Strike, Infiltrator, Scout, Teleport, Reinforced Armor, Independent.
That makes them harder to kill (as you mentioned was a problem), meaning 25% die to normal fire, 50% to MW fire, and 100% to TK fire, and reduces their offensive capabilities quite a bit (enemy RA gets both saves, enemy INF get cover saves, etc.). A 5+ RA save probably won't be enough...thats a 50% kill ratio from normal AP fire, 67% from MW fire, and 100% from TK fire. I'm not sure thats resilient enough for what you want, i.e. giving them more survivability. OTOH, 4+ RA might make people whine, despite it being appropriate.
That should significantly reduce the "all-or-nothing" issue. But, again, I'm not convinced its a problem.
Man...if adding Special Rules wasn't actually an issue, I'd add TWO to these buggers.
1) MUST Teleport into Cover
2) +2 on any Cover Save they make, Always counts as being in Cover even if in the open (-1 to hit, 5+ Cover Save)
But even THAT doesn't work as well as it should, because in Epic, unlike in 40k, MW shots IGNORE cover saves, as opposed to only GETTING a save vs such weapons if you are in cover. Goofy. And just another example of how you shouldn't get too locked into the mindset of how everything must be a direct conversion from 40k or Fluff to Epic.
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