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Necron 4.2 - comments
corey3750
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:27 pm 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 23 2007,17:23)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 22 2007,22:09)
QUOTE
Garrison


So you split your army into three isolated groups?

Generally, I garrison several formations off of my Blitz objective, with two on overwatch, trying to set up "crossfire zones" as well.

Only one unit from a garrisoning formation has to be within 15cm of the objective, you can string out the rest of the formation in whatever direction you like; using scouts' ZOCs you can make a pretty large area denied to Necron teleports.

which is all you really need to severely blunt the first turn teleport.  In fact it becomes a bad idea.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:50 pm 
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[Deleted because it's off my intended focus and Mosc has a good point]

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:23 am 
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The army you are describing (9 Monolith, 4 Phalanx with Pariahs in each, 2 Pylons, 1 Venator (Flayed Ones)) is just under 3000 points, so presumably the opponent will have around 10 formations.   Those Phalanx are not looking terribly strong to me, either.  The argument you make is fine, but it holds about the same merit as a lot of other popcorn armies: they look good on paper.

And lets just assume that only half the formations are broken/destroyed, with the new rule those formations will have to rally to return.  Assuming half of those make it back turn 2 has 12 formations coming back, probably with BMs on the assault formations.  All this assumes that the opponent isn't going to perform some type of assault and bring multiple Necron formations into the fray.  It wouldn't be hard for you to choose assaults where you could outright destroy your opponent with no chance of support.

By turn 3 you as the Necron player don't WANT to leave the board because there is a good chance you aren't coming back, but all your opponent needs to do is shoot at you to send you to oblivion.

My point is that we have a viable solution to solve the Necron problem.  I hate to break up Neal and Corey's favorite argument but I think we should be trying to trouble shoot these suggestions.

On a side bar, Corey, is there any thought to bumping the Pariahs?  Even 10 points would be preferable to make it something of a choice over immortals.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:36 am 
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with the new rule those formations will have to rally to return.


This is vitally important, as previously they simply reappeared next to another enemy formation and assisted turn 2 Engagements.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:32 pm 
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I also forgot that of the 9 lone monoliths in this scenario, odds are 1-2 will be broken right from the offset just by teleportation BMs. Another 1-2 will break just from failing their activations on turn 1 (especially with no SC in the list).  I'm not convinced the popcorn maneuver would work even without the rules revised.

There is no doubt in my mind the Necron list is in need of repair though, and the auto-rally removal is the biggest step I've seen Corey add to the list.  Is there anything that we've missed about removing the auto rally that might complicate the play of the army? This is my concern right now.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:06 pm 
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Mosc:  The point is not a "this army v. that army" argument.  It's that blithely spinning out "you just do X, Y, or Z as a defense" in the face of overwhelming playtest results is not sufficient.

That was present to a certain extent during the Swordwind playtesting, because the participating group splintered into working on their pet lists, limiting feedback on each.  We see the results of that.

The scope of the mistake was pounded home quite clearly in the BL development, when a handful of people popped in and started powergaming the list in ways we hadn't considered and all the defenses against the proposed tactics crumbled in the face of more extreme application of those tactics.

The same thing happened with the Nid list.  All the tactical advice assumed certain parameters of force construction and tactics that were just community conventions, not actually part of the Nid list.  In the face of army org and tactics that withstood the nominal counter-tactics, the Nids crushed everything.

That's the exact same thing I see happening here.  People have reported dozens of games with Necrons dominating and the response has been "your tactics are bad" even after people have reported specifically attemping to duplicate the reputedly effective tactics.

===

I think removing the auto-rally is the best step because it is an incentive to not break in the first place, whereas there is little currently.  That equates to more incentive to use that Marshall action that is part of the army concept.  The phase out rule needs the specifics about how it would work without the auto-rally.  Is the "remove all BMs" still in force on a successful rally, or does the formation simply rally exactly like normal, just off board?

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:44 pm 
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I know what your saying Neal. ?It is simply that the discussion has been done to death. D-U-N done. Stick a fork in it cuz it's DONE. :p ? Regardless of whether or not Corey has some insight into defeating the Necrons, his willingness to change it tell me we need to just let it go. ?It appears that regardless of our opinions of past Necron play, everyone seems to be in agreement now and I'd hate to see progress derailed by a disagreement as old as the Necrons themselves.

As for the rallying, I was thinking the same thing. ?Of course the proposed initiative changes are a big factor in deciding what to do. ?
1. Auto-rally and auto BM removal taken away. Initiatives not changed.
Here you would end up with Monoliths (both lone and upgraded) activating automatically. ?Players would be inclined to bring more lone Monoliths since they rally with no BMs (removing 1/2 rounding up) and they would need no initiative roll to activate the following turn. ?
2. Auto-rally removed. All BMs removed on rally and initiatives not changed.
Monolith abuse might still occur and there may be some issues that now come up with the Obelisks as well.
3. Auto-rally removed. All BMs removed on rally. Initiatives changed on Monoliths/Obelisks/Pylons. ?Monoliths and Obelisks will not rally as easy (4+ instead of 3+) and Necron players will be less inclined to have them break. ?In addition, there is no benefit to rallying lone Monoliths over upgraded ones, so Necron players will tend to upgrade them, tying up points and moving away from the Monolith-army-of-death. ?
4. Auto-rally and auto-BM removal taken away. ?Initiatives changed on Monoliths/Obelisks/Pylons.
As above, but there is now more motivation to bring lone monoliths since they rally with no BMs.

I tend to think option '3' is the best move to make. ?It simplifies other parts of Necron play as well. ?There is no moving of and keeping track of BMs off-board. ?There is no confusion as to whether or not a Necron formation can use its Necron ability and regenerate lost units (they would be unable to since there are no BMs to tinker with).

What does everyone else think?




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:50 pm 
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Fair enough.  I deleted my longwinded tactics post.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:18 pm 
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Wow.  I don't think you needed to delete it - I don't want to be the censor of the board.  And you deleted your comments about the auto-rally which are terribly pertinent.  Sorry if I came off as harsh, Neal.  That wasn't my intention!

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:34 pm 
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Not at all.  I just figured I had too much caffeine when I wrote it.  I tend to be abrasive at times and I figured it was best to cut it rather than risk running off on the tangent.

I think with Corey's apparent willingness to work on the auto-rally and your discussion, I don't have much else to say.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:40 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Oct. 24 2007,09:50)
QUOTE
Fair enough.  I deleted my longwinded tactics post.

It's a pity you did that, I never got a chance to read it.


I want everyone to understand what my point is though.

The point is not a "this army v. that army" argument.  It's that blithely spinning out "you just do X, Y, or Z as a defense" in the face of overwhelming playtest results is not sufficient.


The overwhelming play test results were meaningless by and large.

at least 80% of the time, from the descriptions I read, losses to the Necron occurred because the person playing against them did exactly the wrong things.  I'm not saying they are bad players, I'm saying they did the wrong things because they have always been effective against other armies.

It takes me so long to decide on changes because I have to wade through all this and sort out problems with the list from problem with how people choose to fight the Necron.

NOT ONE of those "overwhelming playtest results" even attempted to use the kind of deployments or patience required.  I've SEEN it done with my own two eyes, I've DONE it, I know it's effective.  I know how patience in play and maintaining cohesion in your army is effective, again I've done it, I've had it done to me, seen it done to others... But since I can almost never find someone to play with all I have are these reports.

Now while I'm sure this may anger or offend someone, be reassured that is not the point of this.  I'm trying to get through to people here.

I am BEGGING YOU, make this easier on me, play a game where you don't fight the way you always fight, fight the way you NEED to fight in order to win.  If you want suggestions on tactics, I will be more than happy to give them to you, but please just try.

At this point I'm half convinced this whole thing is going to go straight into the toilet once it gets out in the world.  I'd really love to have results where I could more easily pinpoint the problems in the list without having to sort through problems with the fight itself.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:51 pm 
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If you put out a consolodated latest version of the list, I'll badger Zombocom to start playing his Necrons again. :)




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corey3750
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:02 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 24 2007,10:51)
QUOTE
If you put out a consolodated latest version of the list, I'll badger Zombocom to start playing his Necrons again. :)

fair point. :)


My idea was to follow what is essentially #3 on Moscovian's list for the Phase Out.

And frankly, Pariah's have taken a back seat in my mind because of all the other things I needed to look at.  They aren't exactly what I want at this point, so I'm going to be going back over them and the points cost on them in this go around.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 23 2007,19:01)
QUOTE
Could I also ask that you'd change the Immortals cost as well. Trying to aim to have no unit outside of 25 point change, would be a good thing :D.

As to points:

Immortals - 50 points each

Pariahs - 75 points each

That would be a good start.

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