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Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
semajnollissor
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:47 pm 
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The change in question, in bold:

(2.1.13 2nd paragraph)
Skimmers may ignore dangerous or impassable terrain as they move. They may not end a move on impassable terrain, and if they start or end a move in dangerous terrain they must take a dangerous terrain test. Skimmers may also move over other friendly units as they move, but may not end a move on them. Enemy units and zones of control affect skimmers normally.

This is on pg 10-11 of the change doc.

I say this isn't needed, unless we intend for the skimmer to take 2 checks at every stop in difficult terrain. On a double move, a skimmer might end its 1st move in difficult terrain, roll a test, then move to somewhere else in its second move, but have to roll a test again, since it started that move in difficult terrain. Is this the intention?.

If this isn't the intended outcome, I'd like to know. It isn't that big a deal, except when a skimmer ends the turn in difficult terrain, meaning a test will be made when it lands in the terrain in game turn X, and another test will be made in game turn Y when it moves out of the terrain. I don't like the double jepardy.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:08 pm 
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(semajnollissor @ Oct. 08 2007,21:47)
QUOTE
I say this isn't needed, unless we intend for the skimmer to take 2 checks at every stop in difficult terrain. On a double move, a skimmer might end its 1st move in difficult terrain, roll a test, then move to somewhere else in its second move, but have to roll a test again, since it started that move in difficult terrain. Is this the intention?

I believe this stems from instances of skimmers starting the *game* in terrain that is dangerous for them (which I *always* used to do).

Where a normal unit that started the game in dangerous terrain would have to make a test immediately upon moving, a skimmer could ignore this, and, I think, that's why it was changed.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:51 pm 
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This was discussed in this SG forum thread.

In summary, Greg and others stated that you do get to test twice if you end movement in dangerous terrain, as you test to enter and then test again if you move again. Skimmers do have to test for starting in dangerous terrain and again for ending in it, though they may 'pop-up' to fly over intervening terrain.

However, you can minimise the number of throws by moving through the terrain, or by touching it to gain cover etc (but not entering it).

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Markconz
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:57 pm 
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My own preference would be that skimmers just never take dangerous terrain tests, instead they are assumed to be able to hover over it (like in 40k).

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:21 pm 
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It's intended.

If you want the benefits of staying in cover, you have to get down and dirty in the terrain and take the penalties - both terrain checks (or one if you're starting the game in cover).  Skimmers always have the option of staying out of LoS behind the cover and popping up, or moving over/past it without checks.

I wouldn't care if they didn't have to make terrain checks at all, if they were over the terrain and not taking cover.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:22 am 
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(nealhunt @ Oct. 08 2007,22:21)
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I wouldn't care if they didn't have to make terrain checks at all, if they were over the terrain and not taking cover.

Yes that's the important caveat to my above statement that I missed  :blush:

Hate to say it, but isn't the current rule a little weird how you can stay popped up on overwatch, and pass over cover ok, but rather than being able to hover safely over the terrain, you are automatically assumed to plow into it?

I guess from a gaming point of view such a mechanism (in terrain if on it) once served to prevent potential confusion, but given that the new skimmer rule gives the ability to be 'popped up' on overwatch this no longer makes much sense. Curious, what problems are there in allowing skimmers to remain popped up over terrain as opposed to being forced to plow into it?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:20 pm 
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You'd have to designate each unit as to whether it was on the ground as normal, "half-popped" to stay over terrain and out of cover and whatever implications that created for LoS, or fully "popped up."

Or I suppose you could take the "in cover" option out completely and just not allow skimmers to take cover from dangerous terrain.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:23 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Oct. 09 2007,14:20)
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You'd have to designate each unit as to whether it was on the ground as normal, "half-popped" to stay over terrain and out of cover and whatever implications that created for LoS, or fully "popped up."

Or I suppose you could take the "in cover" option out completely and just not allow skimmers to take cover from dangerous terrain.

That second option sounds best, and would make some sense given the nature of skimmers.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:50 pm 
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I would prefer an option.

IE: You declair when moving your skimmers into a terrain piece whether they are landing in it (Taking cover) or hovering over it.

Nothing too complicated to remember during a game, surely.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:57 pm 
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Ok, I've mulled over this a bit. I can understand why you'd want the skimmer to check at each end of a move, since normal vehicles would have to do so as well (assuming they moved at a speed where they'd be required to do so) - fair is fair.

As for giving skimmers a choice, I think it might be best to say that the skimmer is either popped-up or is not. If the skimmer is popped-up, it cannot embark/disembark [non-jump] infantry, and enemies may be able to draw LoS to it, but it doesn't have to check for difficult terrain unless it ends its activation in difficult terrain and is no longer popped-up. If the skimmer is not popped-up, then it can embark/disembark troops, gain benefits of cover, but must also check for for starting/ending a move in difficult terrain. Also, make it so the skimmer must be either popped-up its entire activation, or not at all.

Of course, you could add a modification stating that you only need to test once per move [if that is what you want the rule to be - right now if a skimmer starts and ends in difficult terrain for all moves on a march, it has to check, move, check; check, move, check; check, move, check. A normal vehicle would have to check about as many times (or more, even) if it moved at full speed].
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Markconz
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:19 am 
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What I was getting at with my comment, was that due to the nature of skimmers themselves I can see good reasons why Skimmers should have to just hover over terrain rather than be allowed to go into it. Ie Skimmers seem to have aircraft like vulnerable intake engines etc, (or rotars in the case of orks!). Thinking here of the design of Imperial, Eldar and Tau skimmers.

Hence forcing them to hover over terrain rather than entering it might actually be logical, and be easier in terms of gameplay. As for dropping off troops they can be assumed to rappel down or similar same as 40k cityfight.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:29 am 
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Skimmers don't have to take a DTT while moving ... a DTT is only taken if they land in DTT and  attempt to move the next turn ... if they land in DT, (or behind it) they get cover (generally, like any other model).  Any unit that "pops-up"; fires first, before a shot is taken at it. And gets no cover, while "up". That's the way we play it ...

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Markconz
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:42 am 
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Ok, so does someone want to take a crack at wording the skimmer rule then? To the effect that skimmers can enter cover or stay popped up over it without having to take a DTT.

Given the current contradiction inherent in the rule at present, I think this issue may be worth resolving now.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Skimmers dealing with difficult terrain tests
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:43 am 
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It may not be wise to give the player the option of staying "popped up" at the end of the move, given the amount of time and effort to get the skimmer rule set up in the first place.

IIRC it was intended that skimmers end each activation on the ground. The reasoning was both a desire to avoid the need for some form of marker to indicate the formation state, and more importantly to tone down Sustained Fire capabilities etc.

I believe that skimmers on OW are assumed to be "popped up", but when OW is used they drop back to ground level. It is less clear whether Skimmers on OW are 'hovering below the tree line' and can thus claim to be in cover from direct fire - one would assume so. If you have to clarify anything, it should be this aspect IMHO.

As Neal and others have said, it is the player's choice to land in dangerous terrain; he must accept the penalties along with the benefits.

Finally, many people in the UK play a convention that units touching terrain are assumed to be in cover from firing (though they do not get the terrain cover save). This is an extension of the rule regarding infantry touching AVs that would seem to assist here as you don't have to take the DTT to gain the benefit of the cover.

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