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Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
darkangel
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:58 am 
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(Kotrin @ Sep. 21 2007,08:06)
QUOTE

for me there are NO changes due to the new rules required.

but if you all think that there has to be a imperative change, then i would prefer 3) as a minor evil!

but i just can repeat my statement:
it was a long discussion with a considered result! The bio-titan is back in game and in balance at all!

No need to change the rules again and probably again and again!

CLOSE THAT CASE!
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primarch
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:35 pm 
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Hi!

Tell you what I'll do, since we've done it before in cases like this.

Keep the rules as are AND add an ALTERNATE RULE for those whom like their Tyranids stronger (call it the laternate whatever name you like).

Thats it. Those who like the recent modifications keep them and those whom like a variant can use that.

This way everyone can play with the flavor they prefer without having to accept a variant they dislike. This revision has been all about choices and listing many variants and things, so this wont burden anyone.

As darkangel said....

CASE CLOSED!

Zap, add an alternate box with this and with this the the tyranid revision ends.

Thanks to all!

Primarch

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Kotrin
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:23 pm 
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Sorry but---

Four pages ago, the purpose of this thread was to integrate multi-wound rule and regeneration rule in core book, for clarity and consistency. There are multi-wound creatures (Harridan), there are regenerating creatures (Bloodletters, trolls) and there are multi-wound regenerating creatures (Dominatrix, Bio-Titans).

Not all of these combinations belong to the Tyranid book.

Moreover, there was some inconsistency between the two rules. For example, a regenerating creature and nothing else was clearly better than a regenerating creature with two wounds, go figure!

I've therefore rewritten those paragraphs so they combine better, something that was anything but clear before.

Then, I was informed that several weeks ago people not on holidays reached a "consensus" where regenerating creatures were allowed just one regeneration attempt, that pen weapons added to critical against bio-titans, and so on. Naturally, the discussion evolved around tyranid units and then came the heated debate over Hierophants (and don't get me started on Dominatrix)

Should we forget any hope to have well written regeneration and multi-wound creature rules in the core book, just because some people dislike Hierophants?

You advise us to use an optional rule. I'm all for it, I just wonder how and where we should write it - let alone what it should contain... :confuse:

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zap123
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:39 pm 
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Hi Primarch, will do.

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scream
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:54 am 
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Just an Idea that crossed my brain while I was replying to the topic about the 1 wound regenerating chaos unit (if we modify the regenerating chaos unit by giving them 1 wound regenerating instead of the regeneration ability).

Wouldn't it be just easier to limit the regeneration roll dices to the maximum number of units wound ?

This would remove the extra special rule for penetrating weapons, Chaos regenerating units could be 1 wound regenerating units and the wound regenerating explanations could go in the core rules.

Example:
- a hierophant got 9 wounds at the end of a turn. As it's maximum number of wounds is 8, it just can roll 8 dices. So a Hierophant with 16 wounds could not be able to regenerate in the end phase. Off course, he could regenerate 1D6 extra wounds by playing the special card.
- a blood letter get 1 wound by charging a unit in First Fire order. It falls down before CC, in the advance order, another unit shoots it while it's down, giving it another wound. It won't be able to regenerate as it has 2 wounds, and can only regenerate 1 -> BL is dead and removed from the game.
- a Hierodule got 3 wounds at the end of a turn, it can roll 3 dices for regenerating its wounds, if it had 9 wounds, it could only roll 6 dices as its maximum wound number is 6.

I'm sorry having this idea so late...but I think it's really easy to manage in the game, would reduce enough the regeneration ability and could be applied to all wound regenerating units in the game...and it could easily represent the organic regeneration capacity limitation of the unit...

PS: just to remind you that the hirodule will be back in the game in the release of next tyranid codex with the correction of the overall armor values: Front 2+ / Side: 3+ / Rear 4+ instead of 4+/4+/4+




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Ulmo
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:51 pm 
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We may have here a good idea.
But I tend to regret that a regenerable unit could be killed with the certainty that it won't have a chance to raise again (especially in the case of basic units, it's easy to inflict a second wound).
I'm of course OK if it's needed for balance, or even for simplicity, buyt I warn against a loss of flavour.

Here are some others propositions around the same idea : Regeneration gets harder when more wounds have to be healed.
Each time the unit gets totaly wounded, a malus of 1 in inflicted to regeneration.
This can be understood two ways :
  • a Dominatrix with 10 wounds (current surviving proba 16.2%) will regenerate the 4 first ones on 4+, the 4 next ones on 5+, and the 2 last ones on 6+ (2.85% chance of surviving).
  • the same Dominatrix will regenerate all its 10 wounds on 6+ (surviving proba 0.027%).

    First solution is closer to the current rules, second is easier to use.
    I'd also always allow a wound to be healed on 6+.

    For a 1 wound unit, surviving proba were :
    1 wound 50% / 2 wounds 25% / 3 wounds 12.5% / 4 wounds 6.25% / ...
    and would become :
    1 wound 50% / 2 wounds 16.7% / 3 wounds 2.78% /...
    or
    1 wound 50% / 2 wounds 11.1% / 3 wounds 0.46% /...


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    zap123
     Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
    PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:45 pm 
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    I've sent all the books off, so next chance is Gold :)

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    scream
     Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
    PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:08 pm 
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    Hi Zap,

    the regeneration rule in the rule book you have sent is the one with penetrating rule (add penetrating bonus to number of wounds etc... ?)

    Let's give a chance to this rule and see how it's played in the game ;)

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    darkangel
     Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
    PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:29 pm 
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    (scream @ Oct. 01 2007,14:08)
    QUOTE

    Absolutely!
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    zap123
     Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
    PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:38 pm 
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    (scream @ Oct. 01 2007,14:08)
    QUOTE
    Hi Zap,

    the regeneration rule in the rule book you have sent is the one with penetrating rule (add penetrating bonus to number of wounds etc... ?)

    Let's give a chance to this rule and see how it's played in the game ;)

    As ordered, the ammended rule for penetrating stands (penetraing adds to critical roll and critical damage roll).  There is an optional rule to ignore that change and the change to regen for people who want to stick to the old way (and Tyranid players :D )

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    Ulmo
     Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
    PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:43 pm 
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    OK, it's too late for the next Gold version.
    But in my opinion, the proposition seems nonetheless worth discussing and maybe testing.
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    scream
     Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
    PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:48 pm 
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    (Ulmo @ Oct. 02 2007,17:43)
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    OK, it's too late for the next Gold version.
    But in my opinion, the proposition seems nonetheless worth discussing and maybe testing.

    The new release will be the 5.X, not the gold ;)

    I hope a maximum of tests will be made to know if the rule is OK or not ;)

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    zap123
     Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
    PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:48 am 
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    We've tested it locally in 2 games so far.  Tyranid titans are still just as scary, but they now have to be wary of Volcano cannons and Hellfury guns......like most other things do.  Despite the rule changes my Squats still did not manage to kill a Heirophant (which ate a Colossus and a Leviathan in 2 turns) as the Bio-Titan is too fast and I could never get the Hellfury to bear on the target.  In the other game my Iron Warrior Reaver with 2 Volcanos did manage to hunt down and heavily damage a Heirodule, but its' friends punished the titan for being on advance next turn.  The Reaver had to go on advance because the bug was using buildings as cover, but then 3 Razorfexes with extra move charged and killed the titan.  Given their speed and Agility it is hard to get a shot on the bio-titan if their owner doesn't do anything stoopid.

    There was enough residual damage that the Heirodule died next turn after I hosed it down with a MASSIVE amount of firepower.  It was already carrying 3 wounds and I fired at it with 1750 points worth of stuff and even then only just made it.  Despite claims to the contrary, the Tyranid titans are far from neutered :D




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    darkangel
     Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
    PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:42 am 
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    (zap123 @ Oct. 03 2007,00:48)
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    We've tested it locally in 2 games so far. ?Tyranid titans are still just as scary, but they now have to be wary of Volcano cannons and Hellfury guns......like most other things do. ?Despite the rule changes my Squats still did not manage to kill a Heirophant (which ate a Colossus and a Leviathan in 2 turns) as the Bio-Titan is too fast and I could never get the Hellfury to bear on the target. ?In the other game my Iron Warrior Reaver with 2 Volcanos did manage to hunt down and heavily damage a Heirodule, but its' friends punished the titan for being on advance next turn. ?The Reaver had to go on advance because the bug was using buildings as cover, but then 3 Razorfexes with extra move charged and killed the titan. ?Given their speed and Agility it is hard to get a shot on the bio-titan if their owner doesn't do anything stoopid.

    There was enough residual damage that the Heirodule died next turn after I hosed it down with a MASSIVE amount of firepower. ?It was already carrying 3 wounds and I fired at it with 1750 points worth of stuff and even then only just made it. ?Despite claims to the contrary, the Tyranid titans are far from neutered :D

    like i said, the bio titans are still very dangerous...they just have to be carfull for penetraiting weapons and this weapons are rare. so you just put your bio titans into cover or out of LOS to a penetraiting weapon and set your focus on something else...like zap said, you have to move your titan to bring him into a good position and then it could be late....
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    Kotrin
     Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
    PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:45 am 
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    Have you at least tried to aim for legs? Unless the Tyranid player had the triple-move charge hive mind card, Hierophants should not be able to enter CC before turn 2 - or you really botched your deployment. :) It means you (normally) have two shooting phases to cut BioTitans legs (turn 1, and turn 2 before CC since Praetorians are always firing in the First Fire segment), which should be more than enough to decrease the threat. Squat Prateorians are having a decent +12 CAF, not something to ignore either.

    Perhaps you just lacked some luck?

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