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Well, I spoke with Andy H.
Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:34 am 
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Can I go for the record on Chaos box sets.

I got 5 when they first came out and then proceeded to lost the sprues with most of the figures still on them (was only working on LatD at that stage). So I've gone out and got 5 more box sets so that I can work on my BL armies.

Tim

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:52 am 
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This spring I spent ?300 on Epic, including 5 sets of the new Chaos sprues.

That's more than double what I've spent on their 'mainstream games' this year, both of them combined.

I just hope stuff like that puts a spanner in their projections!


Actually, what this says to me is that nothing that the players could do would have made a single point of difference to the outcome.  :(

After this time around i have come to the conclusion that epic will never be a viable sustainable game until GW outsources it to a third party company. I wouldn't mind FW doing it, but would care who, as long as GW (or any wimpy appendage aka Fanatic) doesnt do it.

There is a bigger concern than this. The players simply wont touch Epic, whether we are talking EA of Epic5th. Why would anyone buy into the game now, even if there is a resurrection? Why not play other games, from tiny companies, which have managed to support their games for more than a couple of years and have not halted progress because of issues that are not due to the game in question?  :devil:

Without player support, it doesnt matter what the plans are. And I think that GW/SG may now have pushed the players just one step too far.

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alansa
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:52 am 
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I have haven't expected anything from GW since 1997. To me it was all over there and then.

Anything GW has done for epic after then has, to me, been a complete surprise and a total bonus.... I have been delighted to take advantage of the new epic stuff that game out since EA's release, but if it had never happened, it wouldn't have mattered to me (though GW would not have got any money from me for 40k or Warhammer.)

I think GW policy on SG has been far better than what came before. Pehaps not as good as people would like, but then people where never likely to get what the liked, where they?

GW know they need a fall back range to capture dollars from old farts like us, that don't go to the core games.
All investment is made to make sure as many punters ?as possible spend on the core games. Mighty Empires for Warhammer, Apocolypse for 40k are ways to keep players interest up, and tempt them from going elsewhere. If that fails then at least they can spend their dosh at SG, instead of some other company.

It is evident that GW believe that SG has had all the investment it needs in order for it do do it's job.

GW will not be creating any new games, neither will they be ditching the current SG range. The investment made in all the games so far has been far more than SG needs in it's current mission. And just so long that continuing with the current range doesn't cost more than it's worth, or distract unduly from the core business, it will stay.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:53 am 
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And I think that GW/SG may now have pushed the players just one step too far.

I'm gonna keep playing Epic, whether GW supports it or not.

I don't want to play another 6mm sci-fi wargame with a different setting and models, I like the aesthetic of the 40k universe too much.

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alansa
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:30 pm 
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Totally agree with you there E&C

If I where to give up on epic, then I'd give up on GW all together. I love the 40k background, but I won't reward GW's abuse by buying 40k.

What I love about 40k is the sarcastic and sardonic historical angle. Few other sci-fi bacgrounds do this, and non to the same level as 40k does.

Sorry DRM and Exodus, I'm not interested in any made up sci-fi world, they have no relevence or meaning. Over the years, 40k has been an education and not just a pleasure for me.

If I do give up on epic, I'd probably go for real history. But for the time being, I'm very very happy with EA!

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:39 pm 
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Me too. I love the Wh40k universe. Nothing will convince me to use non-GW models for my Epic armies.
But Wh40k i wouldn't play either....but then..the new Orks are looking fantastic! :D perhabs i buy some and paint them but i gues i will never play with them :)

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vanvlak
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:42 pm 
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(alansa @ Sep. 26 2007,13:30)
QUOTE
Sorry DRM and Exodus, I'm not interested in any made up sci-fi world, they have no relevence or meaning. Over the years, 40k has been an education and not just a pleasure for me.

Well, I'd say that the 40K background is as made up as these. It is an interesting universe, if at times horrendously inconsistent, but it is not the only universe out there. An important point is that both the EW and DRM universes are in their infancy, and have yet to be fully developed to their full potential. The GW 40K universe was in the very beginning a sci-fi adaptation of warhammer fantasy, out of which developed a complex and interesting background - this took extensive investment in people and several years. There's no saying an evolution of background cannot happen with EW and DRM.

Furthermore, both these far smaller companies are providing models (besides WIP rules and background) and releasing new stuff, some of which could also be used as proxy in Epic. Not something I like to do, but I am in the comfortable position of an owner of assorted kg of Epic stuff bought over several years, something which might become a luxury lesss affordable than EW or DRM miniatures. I own an Andrayad army, which I prefer to use as Andrayads than Necrons. Not because I do not like the Necs, one of my favourite 40k armies, but because I appreciate that the Andies have a life of their own which is still growing, and which has the potential to go far.
There's no telling what the backgrounds might evolve into....  :)

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:56 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 26 2007,10:53)
QUOTE
And I think that GW/SG may now have pushed the players just one step too far.

I'm gonna keep playing Epic, whether GW supports it or not.

As will I. However, that is not what I meant. It is one thing to play a game with your established collection of minis and the rule book. However, even I would need a little convincing to pick up a fifth edition rule book and more resculpts of the same minis that I own, in the future!

And, I simply cant rely on GW any further. I agree with vanvlak, that the EW and DRM background is currently at the stage that 40K was in the mid-80's. While it currently doesnt have the depth of the 40K background, that can really only mature over time. I feel differently about the 40K background to any other game, not because it is better in any sense, but because it means something to me and is familiar.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:56 pm 
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So far, I've seen nothing 'deep' background wise from DRM or EW.

Now maybe they have some nicely presented background stories, and rulebook etc. but I havn't seen anything publically availble that is anything more than generic sci-fi.

(Happy to be proven wrong)

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Mephiston
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:09 pm 
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Well I'll continue to play epic because I like the way the rules work, and that balanced army lists are available. The models I use are secondary to good rule set imho.
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vanvlak
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:13 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 26 2007,13:56)
QUOTE
So far, I've seen nothing 'deep' background wise from DRM or EW.

Now maybe they have some nicely presented background stories, and rulebook etc. but I havn't seen anything publically availble that is anything more than generic sci-fi.

(Happy to be proven wrong)

Happy to say that provided they thrive, I am confident you wil be proved wrong.  :D  :D  :D
Remember, these 2 companies have nowhere near the resources of GW, or the resources GW had when it started 40K, following up on WHFB. GW began with WHFB, which has Tolkien and co. to thank - the WHFB background is in fact far more shallow than the 40K one, I feel, although it has developed and is interesting.
Whatever the case, the 40K background began when GW was in a stronger position than EW or DRM, and this was many years ago. The Chaos/Imperium/AdMech and Necron bits (well, I like these guys!) are in my opinion their stronger points. But they took time to mature.

EW and DRM both (at least as far as I know!) operate as the brainchild and investment of one person each, with a few other people offering part time support. For a company of this 'strength' to produce models, complete rules and in-depth background simultaneously and within a couple of years of their conception would be grand. Their priorites, are, I dare say, the fabrication of models first, with consolidated rules/fluff coming in later.

Judging by what little I know of both, I think the fluff, which at this stage could appear to be generic, will  become deeper and more specific.
Heroic warriors in blue armour fighting in the name of the emperor against green skinned aliens sounds very generic, but we know about Orks and Ultramarines, and we are in familiar and well-defined surroundings. I'd hazard a guess that DRM and EW are in the blue armour stage at the moment.  :D

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alansa
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:27 pm 
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40k was always, right from the very beginning 'medieval'

It was warhammer in space (warhammer itself is 'historical')... but more so.

The imperium is (like the warhammer empire), the Holy Roman Empire of real history... but pushed to extremes -

Certainly this medievalism has increased even further as 40k as progressed, and pure sci-fi elements have been virtually wiped out (save for being reintroduced by the Tau).


--- on the subject of 40k miniatures

I adore them, but 40k is not for me. I would collect and pain them just for the hell of it, if I had the time, which I do not because all my spare time goes to epic.

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vanvlak
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:55 pm 
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Incidentally, to get myself a bit more on topic, I'm disappointed by the Nid release nix, although I had thouight this would happen and had invested in a bunch of 2nd hand Nids. What I'd like to know, however, is
(1) for how long will EPic stuff (and other SG stuff too) be sold from the online stores  - until stocks last, presumably?
(2) whether FW will still keep on making Epic stuff. I'd say that beyond AI, it would not, but then again I am no expert on the doings of FW, and someone mentioned the Fortress - or would that count as AI support too?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:02 pm 
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(1) for how long will EPic stuff (and other SG stuff too) be sold from the online stores  - until stocks last, presumably?


They will continue to be sold. The models are not being withdrawn from sale.

(2) whether FW will still keep on making Epic stuff. I'd say that beyond AI, it would not, but then again I am no expert on the doings of FW, and someone mentioned the Fortress - or would that count as AI support too?

We'll continue to see AI/Epic crossovers.

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vanvlak
 Post subject: Well, I spoke with Andy H.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:33 pm 
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Thanks E&C.

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