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Supazzap Guns
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 Post subject: Supazzap Guns
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:47 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Sep. 21 2007,19:45)
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That would be 100pts per gun.

Or 110 if on a Gunwagon... and worth every point.

Well, it's *slightly* less due to savings on buying bigger mobs and such.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Supazzap Guns
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:07 pm 
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If we start playing with the points of Oddboys we will have to look at the cost of Mekwagons in the SF list and Weirdyboys in the Feral List. I am happy to leave these as they are at the moment, but +25pts to oddboys will make them cheap

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Chroma
 Post subject: Supazzap Guns
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:26 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Sep. 21 2007,20:07)
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If we start playing with the points of Oddboys we will have to look at the cost of Mekwagons in the SF list and Weirdyboys in the Feral List. I am happy to leave these as they are at the moment, but +25pts to oddboys will make them cheap

Wyrdboyz are *far* less powerful than Oddboyz.

MW5+/AA5+ 45cm vs MW3+ (TKd3) or 2BPMW 60cm seems completely in line with a 50/75 point difference; Wyrdboyz don't need to be adjusted at all.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Supazzap Guns
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:28 am 
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(nealhunt @ Sep. 21 2007,17:22)
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Since I preach it all the time, I'd really like to keep the revisions to a minimum.  Point cost adjustments are far less complicated in terms of making sure the balance is on when compared to changing stats.

I don't think that is a valid argument given that the balance is already shot to hell and still will be with your proposed revision. Ie it's currently an optional linear points progression but a strongly non-linear increase of effect:

2 Soopaguns - @ 3 times as good as a single soopa gun.
3 Soopaguns - no better than 2 soopaguns.


1BP for Soopaguns would mean you get much better balanced progression of effect rather than the current situation, and would tone down the power of these weapons as is desired. The more i think about it the better it sounds.

Given the MW barrage rules and 1BP for Soopas, we would be looking at a single template hitting all targets on:
6's for a single soopa gun
5's for two soopa guns
4's for three soopa guns

Sounds pretty balanced to me. Everything gets nudged down in power a bit, but the power increase is proportional to points.

Plus it fits the army character much better. Orks are not supposed to have deadly accurate devastating shooting, but that is now effectively what they have, and it's hidden and untargetable, inconsistent in points, and you are proposing to just increasing those points (which takes away from the horde aspect of the army too). 1BP for the soopa guns, and MW4+ for Zzaps is a better option in my view than just increasing points and maintaining a broken system.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Supazzap Guns
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:15 am 
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(Hena @ Sep. 22 2007,06:02)
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1BP would be way too great a downgrade. And if Zzaps were MW4+ TK(d3), then I wouldn't practically ever take soopas. You'd be easily halving their effect, more than that actually as people always use soopas in pairs. So it would 2 templates with 4+ -> 1 template with 5+.

Your numbers are wrong.

It was two templates at 6+ vs vehicles and 4+ vs infantry.
Then suddenly the rule change proposals have this leaping up to two templates at 4+ vs everything. That's a huge change, against the most valuable targets (200 % boost in effectiveness against vehicles, for a proposed 50% points increase). Thus I find arguments about tweaking points being the easiest way to achieve balance to be more than a little strange.  

1BP =  5+ and a single template is really just correcting the balance back towards what it was originally for the 50 points.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Supazzap Guns
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:22 am 
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(Hena @ Sep. 22 2007,06:18)
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It is actually 5+ at vehicles with two templates.

No it wasn't that is part of the rules revision. I'm talking about the original rules compared to the proposed revisions.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Supazzap Guns
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:45 am 
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(Hena @ Sep. 22 2007,06:35)
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If you check the rulebook, you'll find that 1-3BP have AT6+ and that 4BP has AT5+. The change was to make 3BP into 5+ as well ...

Oops your right, brain must have gone offline.  Though of course that just exacerbated the problem with a huge  increase in firepower from a single soopa to two soopa guns (and no change from 2 to 3). A problem that will persist under the current proposals.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Supazzap Guns
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:41 am 
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(Hena @ Sep. 22 2007,07:20)
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But if it's balanced to work with 2 soopas it's no problem.

It is a problem to the extent that it doesn't suit ork character,  and to the extent that it makes no sense in terms of balance for points.

Explain it to a new player. "Let me get this straight - I can have 1-3 soopa guns, but actually there is no point in ever buying anything other than 2 because because the points system is broken? And you guys just revised the rules and left it like this..."

Uhuh.

To look at numbers against vehicles:
Original system/current proposals/1BP proposal
1 Soopa: 1 at 6+ / 1 at 5+ / 1 at 6+
2 Soopa: 2 at 5+ / 2 at 4+ / 1 at 5+
3 Soopa: 2 at 5+ / 2 at 4+ / 1 at 4+

Thus against vehicles the power gradient with 1BP matches the old system better (avoiding the premature jump in the middle and gaining more at the high end), and makes more sense in terms of numbers of units to overall effect.

It loses out against infantry:
Original system/current proposal/1BP proposal
1 Soopa: 1 at 5+ / 1 at 5+ / 1 at 6+
2 Soopa: 2 at 4+ / 2 at 4+ / 1 at 5+
3 Soopa: 2 at 4+ / 2 at 4+ / 1 at 4+


Thus 1BP is probably problematic in terms of power for 50 points (underpowered), but 2BP for 75 in the current proposal seems problematic to me too.  

Part of this is problems in the current Barrage Table, part of it is revisions to the Barrage rules, part of is poorly conceived weapons stats in the first place. It may be we just have to soak it on this one and go with 75 points I guess.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Supazzap Guns
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:56 am 
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(Hena @ Sep. 22 2007,09:00)
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The bigger problem is overall downgrade done by 1BP.

Yeah, upon reflection I think you may be right, as the comment at the end of my last post suggested.

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Charad
 Post subject: Supazzap Guns
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:03 pm 
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I agree on that, adjusting points is easiest way. No stats or unit configurations, please. :)

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