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Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
Kotrin
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:48 pm 
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Dunno. This is getting ridiculous, and in such a weapon match the Imperium will win simply because a Warlord can have 4 weapons while a Bio-Titan will have only 3.

If we look to reduce bio-titan power, I propose to make tentacles non-cumulative in the first place. Either a Bio-Titan has dedicated a weapon slot to tentacles or not, but selecting multiple tentacles has no effect.

B ut I am 100% against one regeneration attempt for wounds. Complicated management, weakens Tyranids, and as Zap pointed out, not changing much things in the first place. Removing this detail would allow us to put Regeneration and Multiwound rules in the Core book.

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scream
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:13 pm 
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My 3 tentacles bio-titans is an abused configuration and was quite provocative, sorry for this.

I compute some probalities to know how much firepower I need to collapse a bio-titan :

I used the hierophant front template and tried to hit leg in the most probable zone (the zone where scatter have  more chances to hit something):

- 1 Heavy IG company 600 points -> 30 shoots -> 10 successfull -> 7 hit leg -> 2.33 pass overall armor -> 2.33 wounds -> 1.16 critical hits in the legs
- 1 Devastator SM company 1000 points -> 36 shoots -> 12 successfull -> 8.3 hit leg -> 2.77 pass overall armor -> 2.77 wounds -> 1.39 shoots do critical hits in the legs
- 1 shadowsword company 650 points (without the penetration rule)-> 3 shoot -> 2 successfull -> 1.4 hit leg -> 0.93 pass overall armor -> 0.93 wounds -> 0.46 shoot does critical hits in the legs
- 1 shadowsword company 650 points (with new penetration rule)-> 3 shoot -> 2 successfull -> 1.4 hit leg -> 0.93 pass overall armor -> 0.93 wounds (+3 wounds for the +3 penetrating factor) -> 0.93 critical damage (as the penetration bonus give a +3 to dice roll and as a 4+ is needed, a roll of 1 is sufficient)

Resume (front hyerophant template, hit leg in the most probable zone):
- 1 heavy IG company 600 points will do ~2 wounds ~1 leg critical hit
- 1 devastator company 1000 points will do ~3 wounds ~1 leg critical hit
- 1 shadowsword company 650 points (W/O penetrating rule) will do ~1 wound ~0.5 leg critical hit
- 1 shadowsword company 650 points (W penetrating rule) will do ~4 wounds ~1 leg critical hit (but seriously damaged)

So to collapse a hyerophant in one turn, I'll need the firepower of 4 heavy IG companys (2400 points) or 3 devastators companys (3000 points) or 4-6 shadowsword companies (2600-3900 points) without the penetrating rule or 2 shadowswords companies (1300 points) with the penetrating rule (in this case the hierophant will surely be collapsed until the end of the game).

So why people don't complain about the warlord and its shield...just because withe the firepower of one heavy company (IG or SM) and few good penetrating weapons/superheavy, the warlord is close to be dead or just dead in one turn. This is not possible with a hierophant...it will be needed 2 or 3 turns of concentrated shoots...




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darkangel
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:51 pm 
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(scream @ Sep. 18 2007,16:13)
QUOTE

great calculation scream ! mathematical demonstrated that the only wise way to fight against bio titans due to the old rules is to ignore them !

I have nothing to add to your clarification !
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Ulmo
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:31 pm 
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Some quick computations, not counting critical hits :
Cost ? ? Wounds ? ?
450 ? ? 2.68 ? ? ? ? ?Vindicator company
800 ? ? 3.29 ? ? ? ? ?StormBlade
800 ? ? 6.79 ? ? ? ? ?StormBlade with One shot weapons
750 ? ? 1.79 ? ? ? ? ?Vulture company
750 ? ? 5.82 ? ? ? ? ?Vulture company with One shot weapons
600 ? ? 4.3 ? ? ? ? ? Land Speeder company
400 ? ? 3.09 ? ? ? ? ?Marauder Destr. Squadron

So 1300 points can collapse a Hierophant even with the current rules.
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Kotrin
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:45 pm 
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Some units are better to hunt down Hierophant than others, apparently.

How many Tactical Companies do you need to hunt down a mere Reaver Titan? :glare:




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zap123
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:54 am 
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1 Heavy Company will kill a Reaver....Void shields are ok, but a hit knocks it down, you don't get to save!  Also, remember you need to do 16 wounds to statistically kill the Heirophant.

Interesting discussion, but ultimately it appears there is compelling justification to support the changes as made.  Thank you Scream and Ulmo for the further supporting evidence.

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Kotrin
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:58 am 
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Sorry, there's nothing compelling here. Have you even read this post from Ulmo?




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zap123
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:20 am 
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Did you?  He basically says an army like Squats is screwed?  Also pointed out the supposed "weaknesses" of the bio titans are easily handled by other Tyranid units.  A luxury a number of armies do not have against Tyranids.

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Kotrin
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:35 am 
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No, he wrote that

I think that tyranids must be more powerful for their cost, because they have to kill more units as they don't get objective points. That also why Tyranids can't get allies: this would give powerful units to an army which could take objectives. This can explain why darkangel has so much difficulties against tyranids.


People are quick to point out Tyranids "advantages" but not their drawbacks - for example, their lack of command, their inability to score VP for objectives, their need to kill every single model of the opposing army (truly a feat against numerous infantry companies.)

You can't just walk in an destroy the efficiency of the three greatest units of the entire army (Dominatrix, Hierodule and Hierophant) and tell that Tyranid infantry will make up for the loss.

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scream
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:49 am 
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(Ulmo @ Sep. 18 2007,19:31)
QUOTE
Some quick computations, not counting critical hits :
Cost     Wounds    
450     2.68          Vindicator company
800     3.29          StormBlade
800     6.79          StormBlade with One shot weapons
750     1.79          Vulture company
750     5.82          Vulture company with One shot weapons
600     4.3           Land Speeder company
400     3.09          Marauder Destr. Squadron

So 1300 points can collapse a Hierophant even with the current rules.

Hi Ulmo,

I don't know how you get your results, but I can not manage to find the same for the land speeder company:
- 10 shoot 3+/-2 -> 6.67 success shoots -> 4.62 hit leg -> 2.31 pass overall armor -> 2.31 wound -> 1.16 critical hit

But I do not worry about it, as I missed my probs for the new rule, I thought that with the new rules, when a penetrating hit was successfull, you made 1 + penetrating bonus wounds (ie a volcano canon hit that passed overall armor does 4 (1+ penetrating bonus) wounds...), my fault. This was not intended but it could be a good compromise to keep the wound regeneration as it is actually:

My proposition for the bio-titan penetrating rule:

Penetrating vs. Bio Titans
Due to their special rules, the Penetrating special ability interacts slightly differently with Tyranid Bio-Titans. If a weapon with a Penetrating value successfully hits and wounds a Bio-Titan, the Penetrating value is added to the number of wounds inflicted by the weapon (ie a Volcano Canon with +3 penetrating value will do 1 + 3 wounds). Then roll for the subsequent Critical Hit roll. If the modified roll exceeds the Critical Hit number for that location, the Penetrating Value is also added to the roll on the appropriate location damage table.


What do you think about it ?

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Kotrin
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:04 am 
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Good:
- simple
- gives a nice bonus to pen weapons but not as strong as a bonus to the critical roll itself
- restores full regeneration for Dominatrixes (the unit everyone seems to forget!)
- allows inclusion of Regeneration and MultiWound in core rules (since this special rule is related to Bio-Titans only, with their special critical hit location template)

Bad:
- None really, but we need to balance out the Good, eh :)

While we are at it, I suggest that Bio-Titans should not be allowed to dedicate more than one weapon slot to tentacles. Ie, either they have tentacles, either they haven't, but they cannot have two or three sets of tentacles.

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darkangel
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:35 am 
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(scream @ Sep. 19 2007,09:49)
QUOTE
Penetrating vs. Bio Titans
Due to their special rules, the Penetrating special ability interacts slightly differently with Tyranid Bio-Titans. If a weapon with a Penetrating value successfully hits and wounds a Bio-Titan, the Penetrating value is added to the number of wounds inflicted by the weapon (ie a Volcano Canon with +3 penetrating value will do 1 + 3 wounds). Then roll for the subsequent Critical Hit roll. If the modified roll exceeds the Critical Hit number for that location, the Penetrating Value is also added to the roll on the appropriate location damage table.


What do you think about it ?

so is the critical hit number modified by penetraiting weapons or not...seems not clear for me in you example...
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Ulmo
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:49 am 
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We disagree on the scatter probability:
X
OXXXX
XX X
X
X

Shooting the O allows 29/36 shoots to hit, but only 25/36 will hit a leg.

Another point : don't bio-titans simply have too much wounds ? It seems that the main complain is the number of hit required, more than the regenerating thing. I know that Titan have many repairable shields, but they are easier to hit (no scatter) and to down (-1 TSM is always enough).
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scream
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:14 am 
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(darkangel @ Sep. 19 2007,11:35)
QUOTE

(scream @ Sep. 19 2007,09:49)
QUOTE
Penetrating vs. Bio Titans
Due to their special rules, the Penetrating special ability interacts slightly differently with Tyranid Bio-Titans. If a weapon with a Penetrating value successfully hits and wounds a Bio-Titan, the Penetrating value is added to the number of wounds inflicted by the weapon (ie a Volcano Canon with +3 penetrating value will do 1 + 3 wounds). Then roll for the subsequent Critical Hit roll. If the modified roll exceeds the Critical Hit number for that location, the Penetrating Value is also added to the roll on the appropriate location damage table.
What do you think about it ?


so is the critical hit number modified by penetraiting weapons or not...seems not clear for me in you example...

a concrete example:

- volcano cannon (-3TSM, +3 penetrate) hit a hierophant in front
- roll does not scatter and hit the left leg
- Tyranid players miss the 5+ overall armor (2+ but -3 TSM)
- 1 wound is inflicted because of armor save missed
- as the volcano cannon is +3 penetrate, 3 extra wounds are inflicted, giving a total of 4 wounds for this shoot
- 4+ is need to inflict critical damage (not changed by the penetrate factor)
- critical damage is a success and roll in the leg critical damage with the +3 penetrate bonus, meaning minimum critical damage of 4 on a 1 dice roll result, with a 2 dice roll result biotitan take 1 more wound and CAF is halved, with a 3 dice roll result bio titan take D3 more wound and the leg is ripped away, CAF is halved.

So, with one volcano cannon shoot in a hierodule leg, if you roll a 3 dice roll in the leg critical damage and get 2 extra wounds in the maximum critical damage, hierodule get 6 wounds and collapse...not so bad no ?

I don't know if with my penetrating suggestion, downing bio-titan wound to 4 for the hierodule and 6 for the hierophant would be acceptable or not...

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Kotrin
 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:02 pm 
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Uh? I thought you were just suggesting that penetrating +N resulted in N extra wounds, as mm1145 suggested.

So a Volcano cannon would cause 4 wounds (1 + 3 extra) and would cause a critical hit on a 4+ on a leg, which, if occuring, would be resolved with a bonus of +3. This single hit would be likely to inflict 4 to 7 wounds and maybe half the titan CAF.

Seems pretty powerful to me...

Bear in mind that CAF is halved if a leg is ripped, but also that a Titan with enough wounds is downed too. If a Hierophant is statistically dead with 16 wound counters, it's also useless once 8 wounds are sustained, and likely to have its CAF halved and move reduced as soon as it has suffered 3-4 wounds. To defend itself on ganging up opponents, it must dedicate a weapon slot to tentacles, leaving it with at most two ranged weapons - and not especially the Plasma Destructor sort.

And yet everybody trembles...




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