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[Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:05 pm 
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Greetings Seers!

Ulthw? is know as a "Guardian heavy" Craftworld, and, yes, both their Warhosts are Guardian based, but they can still take up to three support Troupes, per Warhost, like other Craftworlds, diluting those Guardians somewhat.

What would people think of the proposal that Ulthw? only gets to pick two Troupe selections per Guardian Warhost?  This might be seen as a non-points balancing mechanism for their Strategy Rating 5.

Thoughts?

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:41 am 
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From my previous work on the Ulthwe list I can say that this would not pose too great a hardship on an Ulthwe army.

I am more concerned with the proposed changes to Wraithguard and the changes that would have on my army composition, but that is another argument.

It was proposed to charge for Black Guardians, is this still the case?

Tim

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philipc68
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:26 am 
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I'd just as soon see them go to SR4 but drop the limitation on Black Guardian formations.

Philip
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:25 pm 
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One of the things that I like about SR5 is that it forces a Space Marine player to think a little bit more when playing against Ulthwe as there is less chance that they will get the initiative at the start of a turn and also consider the timing of Spacecraft.

In a one off game this can be catered for, but in a tournament where you might play against Ulthwe or not it will add in an additional factor.

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:15 pm 
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If troupes are limited to 2 per warhost, then armies (ulthwe ones) become to look more similar to each other. Ulhwe has only few aspect warriors, witch are pretty limited to 1 per warhost. They do have similar amounts of other stuff like biel tan, so I do not support that. As hena pointed out, in 3k games I would need at least one guardian host more, and that really limits my choices of making a bit different list for every game.

Sr 5 is very good, and it reflects ulthwe well. so no dropping that. Cost issue? hmm, that is lot harder case, I haven't found ulhtwe overpowered because of that and list has limitations already, so why make more? Is it really needed?

If SR is going to reflect unit costs, why marines have Airforce and titans at same cost as IG? :)

I'll continue later, now I have to go...

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Moscovian
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:43 pm 
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SR 5+ is a big deal and if you intend to keep it I would recommend making some other limitation on the army.  the 2-per warhost sounds fine for now.  Charad and others might be forced to work a little harder, but that is a small price to pay for being able to take that SR almost every turn.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:42 pm 
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I agree that SR 5 is a big deal and as I stated above I believe that it is a good thing and allows for a different emphasis in the style of play compared with BT. If we need to add in more restrictions to the list because of this then ok, but it shouldn't be too great.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:03 am 
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(Hena @ Aug. 17 2007,09:42)
QUOTE
I'm not the Eldar player here, but that change could have an effect on the lists shown by Charad. He seems to have a lot of Vehicle formations with two Guardians (one normal and one Black).

From my copy of Ulthwe 2.3:

Ulthw?'s need for long standing Guardian hosts have lead to veteran Guardian hosts. It is these veteran
Guardians that has earned the reputation given to Ulthw? Black Guardians. Because of their rarity you may only
have one Ulthw? Black Guardian Warhost in every three Warhost taken (round fractions up).


We have taken this to mean that unless you have 3 guardian hosts you cannot have a black guardian host?


On Chroma's topic, I need to have think about Ulthwe - but my initial thought is that it is probably too harsh a ruling.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:07 am 
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(Markconz @ Aug. 18 2007,00:03)
QUOTE
We have taken this to mean that unless you have 3 guardian hosts you cannot have a black guardian host?


On Chroma's topic, I need to have think about Ulthwe - but my initial thought is that it is probably too harsh a ruling.

The "round factions up" EPIC stand by means that, either one, two, or three Guardian Warhosts is rounded up to "three", so, an Ulthwe army with a single Guardian Warhost could choose that one as either Black Guardians or standard ones.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:18 am 
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Damn -  it actually even says that in the wording, move along nothing to see here... :blush:

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philipc68
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:52 am 
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I've always taken the rounding-up thing to mean what Chroma said, except that I would have thought that if you had a single Host it would have to be a regular Guardian host since 0 doesn't round up to 1 :)

The wording would be much clearer if it said something like

"The army may always include one Black Guardian Warhost. An additional Black Guardian Warhost may be taken for every two Guardian Warhosts". That way it's clear you can take a sequence like

BG G G BG G G ... etc

However, I think it would be even simpler overall if the restriction on BG hosts was either dropped entirely or made something like "at most half the hosts". In my games I almost always use 1 or 2 BG plus 2 G anyway, so "at most half" is equivalent to the current rule.

On the SR5 thing, clearly I'm in the minority on that, which is fine :) I've played Ulthwe using both Sr5 and Sr4 and found I enjoyed the Sr4 more. With extra retains and the benefit of Farseers, SR5 on top of that just seems to make things too easy (and I've *never* used spirit stones).

Hey, here's a couple of ideas:

- Include Eldrad (or something generic like Spiritseer) as an expensive special Farseer that gives SR5. Say, 75 points-ish for Supreme Comander, Inv Save, Farsight, gives SR5,
- or make it an upgrade for the Seer Council

Then at least if we want the SR5 we have to pay for it, and if that stand dies we lose the SR5.

Back on the original topic - I don't think a limitation on troupes is needed, but I seldom take all the troupes I'm  allowed.

Cheers
Philip
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:18 pm 
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(philipc68 @ Aug. 18 2007,06:52)
QUOTE
- Include Eldrad (or something generic like Spiritseer) as an expensive special Farseer that gives SR5. Say, 75 points-ish for Supreme Comander, Inv Save, Farsight, gives SR5,
- or make it an upgrade for the Seer Council

Then at least if we want the SR5 we have to pay for it, and if that stand dies we lose the SR5.

Have tried`both of these in the past and it didn't work well with the army.
EG. What happens if the unit is off the table is the army still SR5 & a Marine army is SR5 with or with out a Supreme Commander and several other arguments that I will try and remember if people want me to.

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Irondeath
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Troupes Choices Limitation Proposal
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:31 pm 
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No named characters in standard Epic lists, please, that is soooo 40k  :p

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