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AMTL 2.1 +

Kleomenes

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:37 pm

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Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:39 pm
Posts: 227

For what its worth, I am in the camp of desiring three seperate lists, with this current list serving as the "Titan" list.

I'm mixed as to whether knights should be removed. I like them, and I want to play a knights list someday (Siegers with no fortifications and knights added is my rough idea!), but is this current AMTL list a case of too many ingredients spoiling the flavour?

Narrowing the list would have the additional benefit of concentrating testing efforts on a smaller selection, allowing the list to be finalised sooner. Knights could then be considered as an appendix add on for those that want it, outside the main list but eventually costed with further testing.

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Grimshawl

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:32 am

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Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:11 pm
Posts: 208
Location: Newark Ohio

The amount of time this list has been "worked on" has already exceeded any reasonable amount of time to finish three army lists with plenty to spare. If most of you want just titans in a list then I suggest bitting the bullet and only having titans, no regualr vehicles, no skittari or tech guard infantry, just the warlords, reavers and warhounds with little to no restrictions on what weapons can be mounted on the reavers and warlords as compensation for the low activation and lack of variety and no additional points system for the weapons, thus its simple and quickly done which seems to be the only chance this list seems to have of going forward.
I'll be honest I think it sucks that all the variety of the titan legions is being nuetered but hey at least I have the previous experimental army lists if/when I want to play. I seriously dont understand how anybody can look at all the goodness that is in Gargant list including the stompas which are the oppossing equivalents to knights, and think that knights dont belong in the titan list because the list is too broad in its scope.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:39 am

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

It's the start of a new page, so I'll say the usual:

I'd prefer 'patch' lists which were balanced for use with other Imperial Armies:

- More Titan Configurations
- Knights
- Ordinatii

I see no reason why it couldn't be balanced, especially as they'd all be limited to 1/3rd of your list.

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Markconz

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:27 am

Purestrain

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

My 2c.

I haven't played this list yet - but I have been accumulating models for this(these) lists including knights, ordinati,and rare titan bits and bobs. Personally I don't care whether these can be used in the same list, or different lists, provided there is provision for them in some form.

I like the 'patch' idea. Do you intend that this would replace the 1/3 titan/AC allowance E&C?

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:33 am

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I like the 'patch' idea. Do you intend that this would replace the 1/3 titan/AC allowance E&C?

Yeah, the 1/3rd restriction on 'other imperial allies' would remain, we'd just broaden the scope on what those allies could consist of (Ie: Take an Ordinatus as part of your 1/3rd allowance, instead of a Titan).

I'm highly tempted to do an ordinatus 'patch', though I don't own any of the three models.

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Markconz

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:50 am

Purestrain

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 24 2007,01:33)

QUOTE

I like the 'patch' idea. Do you intend that this would replace the 1/3 titan/AC allowance E&C?

Right sounds good. I bought an Ordinatus Armageddon yesterday (seemed appropriate). That will do for me I think, I'm not desperate to have all three, plus I do like the idea of having Ordinati as 0-1 to reflect just how rare they are (in fluff and background terms - not just on ebay!).

Ordinati should be part of an 'Adeptus Mechanicus' patch yes? As opposed to knights or titans? Must admit I am not up to speed on the fluff and background for all this stuff. It's been ages since I read it. Thus I am basically content to let others sort it out while I focus on the core rules and lists

I will use whatever people finally come up with though!!

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:29 am

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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

I can't figure out why no Marine army would then leave without long range support of Ordinatus.

What if it cost 700pts for Guard, but 1000pts for Astartes? (Random example).

Then again, I have always dislike Ordinatuses as they are too "hero hammer" units.

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Grimshawl

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:49 pm

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Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:11 pm
Posts: 208
Location: Newark Ohio

I think this is a bad idea as well, in fact I cant ever see this idea meeting with official aproval. In order for this to work you would need to somehow ballance it against every single other Imperial list, it just couldnt work, and coming up with variable costs dependng on which force took these lists add ons would breack with the whole system structure Epic has at this point.
I hate to say it but I think some of us just want to have our cake and eat it too. This would open up a pandoras box of potential min maxing to fill the Imperials weak spots, like was mentioned with taking a Ordinatus to fill the Marines lack of long range fire power.

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Blarg D Impaler

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:33 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 356
Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA

I'd prefer 'patch' lists which were balanced for use with other Imperial Armies:

- More Titan Configurations
- Knights
- Ordinatii

I see no reason why it couldn't be balanced, especially as they'd all be limited to 1/3rd of your list.

Well, yeah, if you don't care about the scant amount of background that does exist for the AMTL you can put knights and ordinatii into other army lists. Who cares, right?

Knights are rare due to their relative reclusiveness. You mostly see them on agrarian and underdeveloped worlds that support Forgeworlds, for local defense. Beyond that they will be "lent" to the AMTL for major campaigns. Based upon the background that I am familiar with, other Imperial forces would have little chance to see knights and negligible chance that they would be attached for support. If you are of the mindset that "I must be able to take knights with my IG and Space Marines or my head will explode and I will die" then I would say that a group of three Knight Paladins can be taken only if a Reaver or Warlord is taken also.

Ordinatus are rare, even within the AMTL. They are purpose built weapons intended for a particular campaign. That is the reason why they are named "Ordinatus Mars," "Ordinatus Armageddon," and "Ordinatus Golgotha" - because there were major wars being waged on those planets (Mars, Armageddon, and Golgotha) and the AMTL had a dire need for a very special weapon. If we were being realistic I would list the availability of Ordinatus for other Imperial armies at nil and unusual -> rare for the AMTL. (Within the 33% limit.) I'd dare say that there should be more varieties of Ordinatus available, yet still rare in appearance.

The AMTL have suffered in this development process from poor army champion leadership and a lack of background material. The "design by committee" approach is not working, especially when most of the people on the committee don't know, or don't care about, the background!

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Grimshawl

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:01 pm

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Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:11 pm
Posts: 208
Location: Newark Ohio

Well said Blarg.

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Pariah Press

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:52 am

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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:42 am
Posts: 253

A lot of the arguments against Knights seems to be because people believe that Citadel will never re-release the miniatures.

Just because they lost the daemon engine molds, doesn't mean they lost the Knight molds.

Jervis specifically told us, IIRC, that we shouldn't worry about miniature availability when designing the list, that it wasn't our problem. I admit that was quite a while ago.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:22 am

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

Well, yeah, if you don't care about the scant amount of background that does exist for the AMTL you can put knights and ordinatii into other army lists. Who cares, right?

Knights don't exist in the current background *at all*. They've been 100% written out of it (There's not a single mention of Knights / Households in any currently in print GW publication).

As to Ordinatii... IIRC the Adeptus Mechanicus deployed 4 Ordinatii to Armageddon during the 3rd war... that's not so incredibly uncommon really.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:35 pm

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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
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Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe

No. Squats are officially written out. They are devoured by the Tyranids.

But Knights where simply ignored.

While i like Knigths the fluff is a bit....strange. I mean...how believableis it that dozent or hundreds of worlds develope a medieval style culture (wel lthis might be possible) and ALL create Knights, because ALL live on worlds inhabited by giant dinosaur like creatures?
Not very likely, isn't it?

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: AMTL 2.1 +

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:43 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

"Knights don't really fit with the current background" - Will Hayes, Forgeworld sculptor.

Okay so that's hardly Tom Kirby, but yeah, Knights are pretty much gone, at least for now. Unlike Titans, Leviathans and Ordinatii, they no longer garner mention in any GW publications. They've died a quiet death, but a death nonetheless.

Not very likely, isn't it?

With closer ties to the Ad-Mech, as a formal arm of the Ad-Mech even, they could be made to fit the current background.

As semi-independent feudal Barons, no, they don't really fit.

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