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NetEA?
orangesm
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:31 pm 
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I agree with CS & Hena here.  The goal is not to create a new ruleset.  The goal is to make it easier for new players to get into Epic and for veteran players to have tools that make finding the changes easier and make playing the game more enjoyable.  So we are looking at small changes, not sweeping changes to the rules.  For example the Air Rules could be totally rewritten, but this would take a lot of work and the desired effects can be made with the small changes suggested (like not allowing a lander to capture an objective on the turn it lands).

To goal at the moment is not NetE:A, it is to make the developer/playtester community more organized towards a particular end and create usable products for the community.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:41 pm 
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If people think the ERC is moving slowly then I would suggest emailing Andy at SG and asking him to get things moving again (not suggesting that Andy is the problem)

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Moscovian
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:19 am 
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I remember personally emailing Greg Lane on the Rules Review months ago.  Things seemed to pick up for awhile but then they dropped off again.

I don't want to speak for Neal, but the last time things moved slowly I believe he spoke to the rest of the ERC as well.  It isn't like they don't know this is taking a long time.

But PG is right.  If a whole bunch of people email in, it will make a much bigger impression than if just a scant few complain.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:10 am 
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Thinking about this more, if/when we do go ahead with NetEA, a 'GW IP free' rules version is an excellent route... and we may be able to convince Tom and Doug to let us use EW and DRM minis to stat up for it...?

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Moscovian
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:36 am 
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Well, how IP-free are you thinking?  I mean, everything from the names of the units to the weapons to the races to the images is IP of GW.  At some point we will have to acknowledge that this is Epic: Armageddon or no new players will ever find our work!  :p

Personally I was thinking of putting a disclaimer on Raiders (the one from the GW site that they recommend using) and then acknowledge that the purpose of the publication is not to supplant SG's efforts but to continue them; make many references to where to buy things from them, and then leave it as is.  This way, if anyone from GW gets a hold of it they'll see it as a giant marketing publication for their goods (the limited ones they have).  This may be enough to keep them off our backs.  Am I way off here?

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Markconz
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:10 pm 
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Given how enormous the task of simply adding a few updates to the EA rules appears to be - even considering rewriting a set of rules to take out all IP etc is simply way off target right now. That is a mammoth undertaking and talk is cheap. There's been quite enough talk and not enough action on Epic for long enough. Lets just focus on getting an up to date set of Epic Armageddon rules done, then you can have all the blue sky thinking you like.

Speaking of which... the handbook is almost completely done now (except for Tau and Tyranids which I'm holding off on). It includes all rules from the Core Rulebook, Swordwind, and Chaos, complete and revised with what are to my knowledge the current updates (apart from hit allocation and fearless). It's taken most evenings over two weeks.  Heaven only knows what the ERC has been doing for two years. After what had already been many delays, Greg Lane posted about this time in 2005 saying "expect a complete set of revisions in a couple of weeks... ". I don't know what happened except that it didn't.

Anyone who wants to remain on target and actually complete the EA revision - I suggest you check the handbook out and give some feedback. I'll have the Beta up as soon as I get Neal's preference for hit allocation and fearless (and any other changes). I've decided to hold off on including Tau and Tyranids from the Beta after feedback from Chroma, Hena etc.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:28 pm 
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(orangesm @ Jul. 21 2007,10:31)
QUOTE
I agree with CS & Hena here. ?The goal is not to create a new ruleset. ?The goal is to make it easier for new players to get into Epic and for veteran players to have tools that make finding the changes easier and make playing the game more enjoyable.

To goal at the moment is not NetE:A, it is to make the developer/playtester community more organized towards a particular end and create usable products for the community.

I have to agree also. Although it's pretty apparent that right now E:A is on life support, I think it might be prudent at this point to wait for GW to make it official before we move ahead with NetE:A.

Also, I don't think it would be necessary to remove all GW IP for NetE:A. Afterall, NetEpic uses it with a disclaimer.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:19 am 
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Wow.  You guys went all crazy busy while I was gone.  I put these threads off to the last of my "catch up" browsing because I figured they'd take the longest.  It turns out I was right.  I still have a lot to digest before responding.

I have a "brain dump" document on the rules changes with status, commentary, specific proposed verbiage and so on.  It needs quite a bit of cleanup and formatting but the bones are there as well as a lot of the detail.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:36 am 
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Excelent.

Welcome back Neal.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:55 pm 
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Howdy folks,

I posted this on a different thread but just in case you didn't see, I inquired of Andy Hall the possibility of re-issuing the Chaos Androids (don't worry there is a NetEA point to all of this - read on).

----------
From:   William S.
Sent:   Wednesday, July 25, 2007 12:04 PM
To:     Andy Hall
Subject:        RE: Chaos Figures Follow-up

Can't say I'm overjoyed by the answers, but I appreciate the response nonetheless....

-Bill

From Andy
Not a problem, sorry it's not the answers you were hoping for. I would never tottaly rule out Epic necrons or even a resurgence of Epic in general, it's just that there is nothing on the plans and we are obviously plan quite far out.

Cheers
Andy


So why am I bringing this up with you here?  Here is my train of thought - we have all discussed the level of support SG provides, the possible need for a safety net (NetEA), and not wanting to step on SG's toes.  But if they have absolutely nothing "on the plans" that means no new models, no old models being re-issued, no new publications, no nothing.  That means no new income for SG from Epic (other than from the existing lines), no marketing to increase that income, and no motivation to support it.

While I understand the need for people to want to legitimize their game with an official company document, it just isn't going to happen.  I encourage the dissenters of the NetEA movement to reconsider what is happening.  If it takes 3+ years to put something from plan-to-execution (taken from the Jervis article - he started working on EA ruleset in 2002, 2005 they came out with the bulk of the range), Andy is virtually guaranteeing that none of us will see anything from SG (in terms of models or support) until at least 2010.  

While I believe Epic will make a comeback, it is not going to be anytime soon.  What does this mean for the NetEA project?

Right now we are simply putting an infrastructure in place for supporting older players and encouraging newer players.  That is never going to be a bad thing so please help out where you can.  Playtest new lists, post batreps, offer your skills wherever they may fit.

Once this infrastructure is built, however, I believe it will be time to vote a new ERC, establish a community ruleset, and start relying on NetEA as the primary support.  How soon will this be?  I don't know. ???

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Dave
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:40 pm 
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Valid points considering Andy's unfortunate answers.

I would also agree to taking the next step with NetEA.  I'd suggest a sticky and locked work-list thread to get ourselves organized and begin to setup the framework.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:09 pm 
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To further back up Moscovian allow me to quote a post I made on the other thread a week ago:

(pixelgeek @ Jul. 18 2007,12:22)
Does anyone actually think that SG/GW is going to release any Epic figs now that they have released the Feral Ork and Chaos minis they had previously made?


No, I don't ever expect Epic miniatures to come out ever again.  If WH40K Apocalypse does well, which it probably will, you can count on Epic never coming back.

I may be reading too much into things here, but I think the names that GW has been picking for things are rather prophetic.

Epic: Armageddon  -> WH40K Apocalypse

Armageddon: The scene of a final battle between the forces of good and evil, prophesied to occur at the end of the world.

Apocalypse: a prophetic revelation, esp. concerning a cataclysm in which the forces of good permanently triumph over the forces of evil.  Any universal or widespread destruction or disaster.

I dare say that GW is going to do what it can to make WH40K Apocalypse succeed so they can:

1) Sell more WH40K miniatures
2) Achieve greater economies of scale for the WH40K miniatures, increasing profits
3) Kill off Epic and be done with it

If we are lucky GW will sell off the rights, IP, and moulds to Epic to some gamer with more money than brains.  But more than likely Epic will just simply fade away like sand being scattered by the wind.

Net Epic Armageddon, anyone?

This isn't meant as an "I told you so" but more along the lines of "supporting evidence."  Wake up and take the blinders off people, Epic:Armageddon is dead.  I fear that this is not a "Dark Ages" for Epic, but an out-and out death.

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primarch
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:45 am 
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Hi!

Although life issues have kept me out of the loop, this is one topic I feel I can comment on with some "expertise".

A lot of what I am hearing, both for or against a net based endeavor, is very similar to the discussions/arguments surrounding netepic's birth.

Those whom chose not to follow our project and stay with the "officially supported" rules, in the end, wound up without any rules or support. Even when it was obvious the plug was to be pulled on epic and a net based project was recommended to epic 40k, there were no takers. Thus those rules became "dead".

I'm seeing the same this time around, with one major difference. There is a good, solid core of responsible, dedicated individuals whom like and care to expand/maintain the Epic A rules. This is no small thing. This is orders of magnitude better than what the previous version had going for it.

I still sense that in some the pull of "officiallity" is strong. Its to be expected. Everyone wants that which they have enthusiasm to, to have an equal reciprocity from the company that created it.

I respectfully request you abandon such notions. This is not my usual playful rants against GW. This is a plea for pragmatism. The saying goes "actions speak louder than words". Without the injection of subjective opinions, the objective facts are that GW has decreased or virtually pulled most significant support for epic. From minis to rules maintenance. Note I do not wish to argue over semantics or illusions of support. If you aren't getting monthly updates for rules or at least one new mini every 3-4 months, the end result is -- no PRACTICAL support.

Promises of "this or that" within the framework of YEARS is not support, its wishful thinking.

From what I have read and followed through the little time epic A has existed there are people that:

1. Probably know the system and its workings better than the creators
2. Have been actively involved in the rules testing, development and maintenance
3. Have shown they have the commitment to lead and or support a net based initiative
4. Even with lack of compensation, have shown they can update/upkeep the rules with a better frequency that GW has to date

So seriously.... what do you need GW for at this point?

Minis? You're not getting those in any way approaching a practical time frame.

Rules amendments/upkeep?

You seem to be a lot better organized and on top of updating than GW is.

So ask yourselves..

WHY do you need GW?

You love Epic A?

Makes it yours and ditch the powers that be, otherwise it will wither and fade like epic 40k did.

I should know, SM2, through netepic is still here in a viable form, epic 40k isnt.

To not heed history is to be doomed to repeat it.

I think Epic A deserves better...

I bet you think that too.

Primarch

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mageboltrat
 Post subject: NetEA?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:42 am 
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Actually I'm am one of Games Workshops biggest supporters. I think they actually make financial sense a lot of the time. But it is obvious they don't have the money to put into specialist games at the moment, and I know this is breaking a lot of hearts, not just amongst the fans.

I think Net:EA is a great idea. I think GW really needs it. They might not have the money to make more models or support it's ruleset at the moment, but we all agree that it needs a overhaul. So do it. Get Net:EA running, when the money comes back into the system, which I recon it will, there will still be a system to put it into. Not a dead husk




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