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Cadres

 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:45 pm 
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Eh, that's enough for me. :)



However, if it is literally an Orca with missiles and bombs, then the Scorpionfish needs:

- To be 'speed : Bomber'

- And possibly have a name-change to 'Orca Bomber' (As opposed to 'Orca Transporter').



I knew there was something off about that beast.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:03 am 
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The Tau list is overpowered, and many unit selections remain pointless (Ever see a Tetra or a Piranha on the battlefield? - Didn't think so).




Have a look in the back on the hill E&C. Tetras are NOT pointless. And only someone who has never used them would say that.... And before you go off that the above army has no fire warriors it's because they weren't finished.

I've never seen that, and I've read IA:3 twice.

Might need a third read perhaps? :D

If you are for adjusting the Tau list, just consider that your ideas might not be the best ones
Of course I do.


Well for what it's worth, here's my views on the list:

Orca bomber/scorpionfish - I don't think it's a necessary unit, personally.

Stingrays - I think they could go to 1x Submunition system attack rather than 2.

Hammerheads - Main weapons get their secondary weapon attack reduced to 5+ (i.e RG = 3+AT/5+AP)

Fire Warriors - make them properly mechanised and make the unit 300 points. They really aren't a garrison unit - they need to be mobile.

Crisis Suits - drop the 30cm AP attack. 3 weapons seems too much - focus the AP more on FWs.

Sentry Turrets - reduce their armour to 5+ - if you look at the 40K size version they aren't heavily armoured like the weapon turrets

So, from my perspective(and I don't expect anyone to take any of this onboard), only 6 unit types get adjusted and the list doesn't need to be completely overhauled and re-written.






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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:06 am 
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Care to post your standard 3k list Dobbsy?

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:03 am 
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Its all in the photo E&C. Like I said my FWs aren't yet finished being painted but the list pictured was:
SC in Scorpionfish in lieu of my Tigershark being painted
Crisis Cadre
Hammerhead RG Cadre + upgrade and Network drones
Hammerhead Ion Cadre
Stealth formation
Drone Formation
Tetra Formation
Stingray Formation
Barracuda Squadron
Hero battleship w/tracer upgrade.
Sentry turrets(old design costs)

In the future I will be changing the Ion heads for FireWarriors with a possible Ion head upgrade depending on the cost of the rest of the army.






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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:23 am 
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Hey !  Nice Tau ! :)

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:02 pm 
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Nice to see your army finished Dobbsy.

For E&C, the good thing about the Tetras is their incredible area coverage and speed.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:19 pm 
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Dobbys: Would you consider your Tau army to be a fairly standard composition?

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:21 pm 
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Actually, no E&C. The reason for this is that I've only ever seen one other person with a Tau army in my area and he had firewarriors, crisis suits and a Manta with fewer vehicles, from memory. Unless more people start to play Tau here I have nothing else to go by unfortunately. How many people play Tau in your area?


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:01 am 
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Well there are two i know of in London with armies - use FW models only, then i played a lot with proxies. Due to cost I want to know what the army is before committing to what I am buying.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:31 pm 
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Yeah, I hear y'all on the cost front.  I *was* going to put in the order for my Epic Tau today, until I sat down and looked at everything I wanted.

basic thought was 'I want enough of any unit that I can take 2 expanded formations, or 3 full.'

works out to be just over 500gbp, over $1000 at the current exchange rate.

needless to say, I didn't end up buying any Tau today, since I already had a 310gbp FW order withou them...
=====

Part of the reason I gave Stingrays a 2x attack is that roughly approximates the effect of a BP template (stingray is analogous to the Whirlwind or Griffon), and there were some serious complaints about a LACK of effectiveness with 1xAP5+.

I'm going to throw down on some proxies (just paper at this point), and run my epic Tau just like I run my 40k tau.  Fast, and no garrisoning FW.  any FW in the army will be mechanized, and will be operating very close to the enemy.

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:29 pm 
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a LACK of effectiveness with 1xAP5+.
but now we are getting complaints that they're too good... :D
I understand you're aim LITS but I suggested 1xAP5+ because it also receives ignore cover which barrage templates don't get. If we keep the price of them the same, not jack it up as some have suggested, reducing it's firepower is the next step. I think because you can take 6 units in a formation you will get 6x AP5+ attacks and that to me seems like a barrage.






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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:27 pm 
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OK... Here I go... To restate some items in one of my previous posts:

Some basic tenants:
- the Tau list is pretty close to OK, but if anything it is too strong and I dont think that it needs up-gunning.
- the Fire Warriors seem to be fine, and the problem is that they dont present a good option compared to other formations in the list, either because of specialisation or points cost.

So...

Restrict the number of auxiliaries to one per Fire Warrior Cadre.

Decrease the number of human auxiliary units in the formation to 7+1, with the ungrade going to +4. This brings it in line with the other formation sizes. I am thinking costing it then at around 150 points.

For now, the Crisis and AMHC Cadres remain unchanged. To reiterate, we will not be dropping either of these as Cadres from the list.


There was an addition point about reducing the speed on the Hammerhead chassis to 25cm. Looking at this for a moment, I would probably prefer to round up the cost of the formation to 400 instead. This would make Hammerheads the same cost as a Leman Russ.

For focus:

Most of the list is working fine. The largest problem, as I see it, is that players are reluctant to take Fire Warriors.

There is, in addition, a general concensus that the Tau list is not underpowered. I am a little dubious about such statements, but accept that is can be powerful in certain situations, and in addition is a relatively forgiving list. That does not mean that I will sanction mass cuts across the list, but that this should be kept in mind. I suspect that a lot of this effect is due to the central role of the Hammerhead - being a relatively powerful tank, available in good numbers and a skimmer. I do not think that major changes are required to this unit.

It was also suggested that Hammerheads be changed to:

RailHead - 75cm - AT3+/AP5+
IonHead - 60cm - AT4+/AP4+

I also find this an interesting idea.

So, my proposition is that the following aspects should be addressed:

- Fire Warrior Cadres
- examine the Hammerhead

OK, now to look at a few comments that have come up...

There was a suggestion that a Human formation be reduced to 7+1 (accepted) but that it should also cost the same as a Fire Warrior formation. I think that this would over price the formation, and swing things the other way.

There is an additional suggestion that the human formation be limited to the core units and no upgrades be available for it. This seems a good idea to me. The human formation should remain a fairly fragile one, and an ability to add a further 6 units to the initial 12 makes it very durable - more than other Tau formations. This would make the humans 7+1 at 150 points with no upgrades.

However from my experience yesterday and from using them previously (I admit this is limited) the job FW's are designed for just doesn't need doing in the current Tau list largely due to the amount of firepower that Battle suit and steakth suit formations have combined with the special rule which allows them to hit and not be hit in return.

This is an interesting point. If we accept that the Fire Warriors are there as an anti-iinfantry unit we can do a pure comparrison of the hitting power.

FW (25 points) - 30cm 2xAP5+
Crisis (62.5 points) - 3 lots of AP4+ (or equivalent) at three ranges
IonHead (62.5 points) - 60cm 2xAP4+

Yes, I know, there is more to a unit than what they are carrying. But just considering offensive ability, the FW do fairly well for the points.

Oh, and one more time... Tau will not get their FF values increased.  :D

Another option was to limit the inclusion of the Ethereal to FW Cadres only. This would be a relatively minor change, and would be consistant with the background.

So... where are we... The thing that keeps coming up is that the FW are good at anti-infantry, but that this is a limited niche in the current force list. The problem, as I see it, is that while the FW are very good at this, this is the only thing that they currently do, and looking through the Tau stats pretty much every other unit also has the ability to hit infantry. Even though I dont think that there is another unit that does it quite as well as the FW, other units are more tactically flexible. In addition, I think that to make a FW formation more flexible, you have to add stuff to it - taking its cost up considerably and questioning why not get something else that started more expensive in the first place.

Possibly the biggest change that I have seen and I am thinking about is the reduction of the weapons on the Crisis teams, dropping the Plasma Rifles. My view on the Crisis units is that they should be the 'melta weapon' of the list - relatively short ranged MW, but able to take our heavier targets. This, combined with their movement ability, would make them good assasins of enemy heavy infantry and tanks, leaving the FW to throw out more ammo en masse and the tanks to shoot around the battlefield in a more co-ordinated manner.

I do think that we need to allocate a specific battlefield role with the regards to these three core units in the game.

---

So, to sum up:

Fire Warriors
Probably restrict Ethereals to Fire Warrior CADRES only.

HammerHeads: speed unchanged at 30cm, 400 points for a formation of 6.
Probably new stats as
 RailHead - 75cm - AT3+/AP5+
 IonHead - 60cm - AT4+/AP4+

Crisis Suits
Possibly drop the Plasma Rifle stats, although I would also be interested in reducing the range of the Missile Pods to 30cm as well. (Also, without wanting to go too far, is the MW small arms justified as well?)

Human Formations: 7+1 units, 150 points, no upgrades.

Any auxiliary formations limited to one per Fire Warrior Cadre.

---

OK... braced for feedback!  :alien:

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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:57 am 
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If the crisis teams are supposed to be there to help take out the heavy armour and heavy infantry why not try the TL fusion blasters as AP4+/AT4+ lance and add lance to its small arms attack instead of MW ability.


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 Post subject: Cadres
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:29 am 
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I'd be willing to try the changes out...  Will you be putting out a new pdf with these or would you like playtesting prior to a new version?

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